Doesn't it prove Janice Lesters point?
Being a starship captain...a big deal?
- Thread starter dswynne1
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Some Star Trek non canon sources have suggested that there are "command tracks" and "support tracks" in Starfleet. In other words specialties that lead to command positions and those which don't.
Helm/navigation, science officer, engineering, and security being "command tracks". This does seem to work with in Star Trek Chekov going from navigator to weapons/security to First Officer (Reliant).
Communications, medical, or general sciences (chief geologist or botanist) NOT being "command tracks".
Helm/navigation, science officer, engineering, and security being "command tracks". This does seem to work with in Star Trek Chekov going from navigator to weapons/security to First Officer (Reliant).
Communications, medical, or general sciences (chief geologist or botanist) NOT being "command tracks".
I don't think that this is exactly how it works. There obviously is some specific requirement to qualify for command and it is likely that certain key positions require you to have it (the science officer probably isn't one of them.) However, even if your current post don't require it, you can still get it, like we see Troi doing. I think when we first see Saavik, she is (back?) at the Academy getting it.
C
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With no military experience but just common sense (I hope!), I struggle with the logic of a communications or science or medical officer being put in command of a starship. Surely to command a ship you need to know how the ship moves and what the envelope is, how far you can safely push that beyond normal (especially in combat or an emergency), tactics, power availability and usage, and how weapons work and what their limitations are etc etc. The sorts of things that a helmsman navigator or weapons officer learns from years of academy training (sorry inadvertant Buzz Lightyear quote!) and experience. And surely not something you just pick up in a short time.
Would you expect a helmsman to lead a challenging full planetry survey or conduct a delicate operation after a few hours training??
Line officers are there for a reason
Would you expect a helmsman to lead a challenging full planetry survey or conduct a delicate operation after a few hours training??
Line officers are there for a reason
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I always figured that the Science Officer might be part of the "command track" because on a Federation starship like the Enterprise the science and research staff is a major part of the crew thus he/she is directly responsible for directing the actions of that group.
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That makes sense if Department Command and Starship Command are two seperate parts of the hierarchy. In the FASA RPG (no not canon I know!) budding Department heads recieve advanced training to lead and train their team and administration skills to liaise with other departments. And Captains and XO's go on to Ship Command school to enhance existing skills up to the higher level needed for so lofty a position.
Presumably, like Scotty he qualified as a line officer at the Academy (minoring in xenobiology and engineering), but transferred to Engineering as Assistant Chief has more "prestige" than Duty/Relief Navigator), so he wore red, but remained qualified to command.
So still no woman on the Enterprise had any interest or capability in being a line officer. No wonder Lester went nuts.
Wonder where DeSalle transferred to after Catspaw? Are there any books on the subject?
JB
JB
That may be so today, but...
...Meaning that navigation is very much a support function, a meaningless push-button job better handled by a computer, while communicating is the primary mission of the starship.
Even listening in on Kirk's discussions with planetary leaders is better preparation for the job of starship captain than the setting of parameters in a navigation computer.
Of course, Uhura (in the TOS reality where she's not a linguist) is never shown doing more than said listening in. But Chekov is shown doing even less. So the logic of the shirt colors or command qualifications is muddled, not reflecting the onscreen reality much.
Timo Saloniemi
I've always wondered why Sulu took command of The Enterprise in Arena and The Omega Glory when Mr.Scott was probably in the engineering section? I can't remember for certain if James Doohan was in Arena but I know he was absent from The Omega Glory!
JB
JB
In the first season, until Taste of Armageddon, they hadn't settled on Scotty as third-in-command because they weren't sure what they had with Doohan. After they realized they loved Jimmy and could count on him, they started writing "Scotty in Command" scripts. Arena was before that; Scotty was very much in the episode but no effort was made to explain why he wasn't called to the bridge once the landing party and the ship were threatened. IIRC, Doohan is not in The Omega Glory at all, and that may have been the last ep he wasn't in overall. Maybe that was because it was a very early, first-season era script and no one put in the effort to rewrite it to reflect Scotty's greatly increased importance in the meantime.
In the 20th century on Earth the steering wheel on a commercial or naval ship was handled by a crewman under the orders of an officer. And as far as I remember the radio was operated by enlisted crewmen instead of officers also. But Roddenbeery wanted to depict Starfleet as being full of highly educated and trained officers, like the astronaut corps, so he made helm and communications officer's positions in Starfleet.
Yes, today. It's not the 23rd century, so I don't pretend to have knowledge about how it will really be done then, and, you know... in fiction.
TOS doesn't have the computer running the ship's navigation. It has a human being - a navigator - running the ship's navigation. If you want a proof supported by the show's own internal logic, in This Side of Paradise, Kirk even flatly states that The ship can be maintained in orbit for several months, but even with automatic controls, I cannot pilot her alone. This would indicate that the computer is not capable of taking on the task of piloting and navigating a starship. If you're on a ship, in vast space, I would think that a navigator might prove invaluable.
Communicating effectively with an alien culture is not the same thing as technical proficiency operating communications equipment. Diplomacy is another trained skill. According to the show, the communications officer = “Hailing frequencies open, Captain.” Uhura doesn't beam down with Kirk to open a dialogue with the ambassador of a newly discovered civilization. She runs the radio.
Exactly. As noted before, probably ad nauseam, Trek's internal logic and organization is inconsistent. I'm laying out how things are organized in a military organization now, which Roddenberry used as the model for Star Fleet. The trick is applying logic and consistency based on what we know about contemporary organization and the most likely intent of the creator's world-building, not making things up to generate a proof to conform to what we'd rather.
It's very possible that Uhura liked her duties and didn't want to be a line officer. We did see at least two "goldshirt/greenshirt" ladies in Lt. Rhada and Ens. Haines. Angela, too, but I think she changed to red by series' end.
...which continues to ignore the emphasis of distinction Commodore Stone placed on serving as a starship captain and Merik--who was in the Academy, so he knew what it takes to be a starship captain (which he did not possess), meaning he's not some Joe Schmoe making an uninformed observation about how special a Starship and its crew were. In "Errand of Mercy", Kor was absolutely elated to learn that the "ram" among the "sheep" was none other than Kirk:
At this point in series (in-series) history, Kor had not laid eyes on Kirk, but he knew who he was and the ship he commanded. Furthermore, Kirk and his ship's reputation was so established that Kor has--apparently for some time--hoped to meet Kirk in battle. No one dreams of fighting random officer of cookie-cutter vessel.
We already know other Klingon captains--such as Koloth and Kang--were also very familiar with Kirk and his ship, which strongly points out (not really necessary with all of the episode evidence) that Kirk and his ship were always on the front lines, "being a thing" in the galaxy, which is not an opportunity shared by any ship.
Continuing, the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident" was also well aware of Kirk and his ship:
So, she was not referring to Spock or Vulcans, but Kirk and his ship. No run-of-the-mill vessel or commander earns the attention of an enemy government or its fleet officers by name and/or reputation.
...according to what TOS on-screen source? Stone made it clear that being a starship captain was a rare distinction not anyone could do. There's no getting around that line.
As noted earlier, Merik was in the Academy--five years in the Academy, so he's no outsider just spouting off crap.
No, Finney is spitting out anger and jealousy about Kirk being an accomplished starship captain. He resents that, because he erroneously assumed he would have a similarly accomplished career.
Then, there's the Babel conference--even the laziest of observers would not miss that the Enterprise (with Kirk in command) was selected to carry the Mount Rushmore/United Nations of Federation ambassadors and dignitaries to the conference if the ship and crew were not considered the best representation of the Federation's Starfleet. They did not call up Wesley, Tracey, the Defiant or Intrepid captains for such an important, high-security mission. They tapped Kirk and his Enterprise.
Clearly, TOS (and TAS to a certain degree) established Kirk and his ship as special not only within Starfleet, but to the Federation's greatest enemy governments.
I'm sure you will try to write that off, too.
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It would have been extremely odd to see Commodore Wesley, Captain Ron Tracey or anyone else deliver the ambassadors to Babel in the episode when the series was about The Enterprise and starred William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy surely? 
JB
JB
...which continues to ignore the emphasis of distinction Commodore Stone placed on serving as a starship captain and Merik--who was in the Academy, so he knew what it takes to be a starship captain (which he did not possess), meaning he's not some Joe Schmoe making an uninformed observation about how special a Starship and its crew were. In "Errand of Mercy", Kor was absolutely elated to learn that the "ram" among the sheep was none other than Kirk:
At this point in series (in-series) history, Kor had not laid eyes on Kirk, but he knew who he was and the ship he commanded. Furthermore, Kirk and his ship's reputation was so established that Kor has--apparently for some time--hoped to meet Kirk in battle. No one dreams of fighting random officer of cookie-cutter vessel.
We already know other Klingon captains--such as Koloth and Kang--were also very familiar with Kirk and his ship, which strongly points out (not really necessary with all of the episode evidence) that Kirk and his ship were always on the front lines, "being a thing" in the galaxy, which is not an opportunity shared by any ship.
Continuing, the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident" were also well aware of Kirk and his ship:
So, she was not referring to Spock or Vulcans, but Kirk and his ship. No run-of-the-mill vessel or commander earns the attention of an enemy government or its fleet officers by name and/or reputation.
...according to what TOS on-screen source? Stone made it clear that being a starship captain was a rare distinction not anyone could do. There's no getting around that line.
As noted earlier, Merik was in the Academy--five years in the Academy, so he's no outsider just spouting off crap.
No, Finney is spitting out anger and jealousy about Kirk being an accomplished starship captain. He resents that, because he erroneously assumed he would have a similarly accomplished career.
Then, there's the Babel conference--even the laziest of observers would not miss that the Enterprise (with Kirk in command) was selected to carry the Mount Rushmore/United Nations of Federation ambassadors and dignitaries to the conferece if the ship and crew were not considered the best representation of the Federation's Starfleet. They did not call up Wesley, Tracey, the Defiant or Intrepid captains for such an important, high-security mission. They tapped Kirk and his Enterprise.
Clearly, TOS (and TAS to a certain degree) established Kirk and his ship as special not only within Starfleet, but to the Federation's greatest enemy governments.
I'm sure you will try to write that off, too.
Thank you. Just . . . thank you.
You can add in the Enterprise hosting the M-5 and poor Schmitter in The Devil in the Dark knowing the Enterprise by name, too.
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