Being a starship captain...a big deal?

[Commishsleer]

The folk who make Kirk fanfilms are also more likely to be more biased against counterarguments than Trump is.

Oooh the Trump card. I'll have to remember to use that when I'm losing an argument.

You do realize the captain can occasionally give an ensign a nod--after a serious situation has passed ("Journey to Babel"). That was a one-off, as Chekov was never given true "command" of the ship.

When I saw the episode when I was young I accepted this but looking at it now there's no excuse really. I mean its pretty insulting. Kirk would never leave the conn to Chekov while Sulu was at helm.

 

[Tenacity]

a male ensign placed in command/OOD

Chekov was never given true "command" of the ship.

OOD stands for "officer of the deck."

There's no on screen evidence to support that

There's a track history of women in the TOS era not being placed in command as a standard, The Cage is the sole time we see a woman in a top command position when there were capable men about. As was noted, no starship captains, commodores, or admirals.

It was…anachronistic

By today's standards yes, but nothing says that the cultural and social norms of two and a half centuries from now will be the same as modern day western societies.

It was fifteen years after TOS (in-universe) that we saw a woman starship captain for the first time.

 

[Commishsleer]

If you do the stats on TNG how many times were women placed in command there? I don't really know but I'd be curious.
I remember that Troi and Crusher had one (token) episode each. Perhaps Troi had some more I can't remember. I don't remember Yar having command but I might have missed those episodes.
How many women were above lieutenant rank in TNG serving on board the Enterprise? Were there lots. I remember Picard's girlfriend I think. I know there were other female captains and admirals.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

OOD stands for "officer of the deck.

I know what it means, and the point stands: Chekov was not placed in an official command capacity. Kirk--fighting the pain of his stab wound--even adds a little smile, indicating that he's giving Chekov a nod in an almost "take the wheel kid...but only in the driveway" manner, just to give him that watered down experience.

"There's a track history of women in the TOS era not being placed in command as a standard, The Cage is the sole time we see a woman in a top command position when there were capable men about.

By mentioning the first episode at all, you are making an establishing point that women held command positions, and again, there's no on-screen statement or action proving women were barred from being captains. All one can go on is the ramblings of a jealous, disturbed woman. No one should re-write the series in order to fit a generations-long misinterpretation of one line of dialogue.

Number One was in command and that distinction did not end in the pilot as we would see the Saratoga's female captain in Star Trek IV - The Voyage Home, which serve as TOS/TOS-movie era evidence that there were no barriers to women being captain, or taking a command position. Not a single, on-screen word supporting Lester's ranting.

 

[BK613]

^^ In that episode there is also Kirk's testimony that Starship command is a "position she doesn't merit by temperament or training." That's it, no gender requirement mentioned.

 

[Antonovus]

I noticed in the King Daniel Beyond's post--the image of the script spells Spock as Spook. Spelling error I presume?

 

[Emperor Norton]

I noticed in the King Daniel Beyond's post--the image of the script spells Spock as Spook. Spelling error I presume?

It was the Russian translation. Or T'Pau might have written the script that day.

 

[Timo]

On the issue of "starship captain" meaning "warship captain", just as it does elsewhere in Trek, I see no showstoppers. People seem to think Kirk is a rare breed within Starfleet, but nothing bears this out. Indeed, when in "Court Martial" Stone makes the one-in-a-million speech, the episode then proceeds to show that Kirk has countless peers who are ready to judge him but show no signs of recognizing him. Kirk isn't portrayed as #4 of the Brotherhood of Twelve, with Krasnovsky and Chandra being #2 and #7, respectively - these two goons aren't Kirk's buddies or competitors, but just random starship skippers from a supposed large pool.

As for flagships, the one in the Abrams movies is amusingly a pretty good candidate. When she launches, Pike is a Captain; when she returns, Pike carries flag braid on his sleeve! For all we know, the ship was always going to be Pike's command post. With some random Captain possibly taking care of the sailing for him, although future automation might allow him to be the master of his own flagship, and for Wesley to do the same in "Ultimate Computer". (Perhaps Decker, too, commanded a Task Force but also the flagship of that force?)

Women in command aren't much of an issue in TOS, because we see so very few starships and generally very few people per starship. Two of the ships we meet have their command structures pared down to just the Captain (Tracey, Decker); others leave the commanding officers unidentified (the CO of the Defiant might have been the only male on that bridge, until that nobody from the lower decks came and strangled him).

It really boils down to Janice Lester, then. And her ambition never was to command a starship; it is not this goal that was thwarted in the past, but the goal of being with Kirk. But Kirk's world is that of all starship captains regardless of gender, meaning a world without significant others...

It is only as part of her sinister plan to reclaim/destroy Kirk that Lester shows ambition at starship command, when earlier on she wanted nothing to do with Starfleet to begin with. And boy (girl?) does she like it! But only as a means to an end. So it's not just a case of a crazy chick saying crazy things nobody in his right mind would try and put straight for her - it's said crazy chick never actually saying anything compromising to begin with.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

People seem to think Kirk is a rare breed within Starfleet, but nothing bears this out. Indeed, when in "Court Martial" Stone makes the one-in-a-million speech, the episode then proceeds to show that Kirk has countless peers who are ready to judge him but show no signs of recognizing him.

Timo Saloniemi

Countless peers? TOS's budget wasn't that big.
I remember the "countless peers@ acknowledging Kirk but turning away.
During Court Martial Kirk was as popular as Weinstein/Spacey is now.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

^^ In that episode there is also Kirk's testimony that Starship command is a "position she doesn't merit by temperament or training." That's it, no gender requirement mentioned.

Exactly. That on-screen opinion (from an experienced captain) concluded that it was what was in her mind that would forever prevent her from being a captain, not gender.

People seem to think Kirk is a rare breed within Starfleet, but nothing bears this out. Indeed, when in "Court Martial" Stone makes the one-in-a-million speech, the episode then proceeds to show that Kirk has countless peers who are ready to judge him but show no signs of recognizing him.

Stone's--

"Now, look, Jim. Not one man in a million could do what you and I have done. Command a starship"

Finney's--

"I've watched you for years. The great Captain Kirk."

Stone's comment is all one needs to understand that being a starship captain is no random job--it requires a unique character and ability to do all that leadership, exploration and politics demands from the individual. Finney's growling was not just born of anger, but his observation about how Kirk is viewed as a captain; Kirk never sells himself as great at all--but others recognize his status. Its the reason individuals such as R.M. Merick ("Bread and Circuses") failed to earn his place to captain a starship, yet even he recognized the distinction of both ship and personnel--

"He commands not just a spaceship, Proconsul, but a starship. A very special vessel and crew. I tried for such a command."

A "very special vessel and crew" requires a very special kind of captain. Clearly, TOS painted Kirk as being (as McCoy once put it) "...one of a kind."

 

[Timo]

I guess I will just have to disagree on every single item and interpretation above... Again.

Look, I'm not out to disprove that Kirk would be a starship captain. It says so in his resume, I suppose, even without having seen that. What seems clear from TOS and necessary in the context is that Kirk is not a special starship captain, and furthermore that a starship captain is not a particularly rare or special position in Starfleet, any more than a ship captain is a rare or special position in today's navies. I.e. it is not a special captaincy in Starfleet, it's merely a captaincy in Starfleet, which makes it special as far as captaincies go.

Stone already says that random people in Starfleet, such as commanders of starbases, may be starship captains. He then summons two further starship captains from the nearest bar (we saw them hanging around there shortly before the shit hit the fan) for Kirk's trial.

Starfleet simply is the place where one finds starship captains. And Kirk risks becoming a famous one for being the first to stand trial for something that could end up badly for him. Prior to that, he has no known claim to fame.

Merrick is a civilian pointing out that Kirk is military. Finney is sarcastic. And McCoy is just sprouting random psychoshit. None of this would offer any support for Kirk being special among his own kind, or indeed special in any fashion, if it weren't for the fact that Kirk is the hero of a rather exciting bit of 23rd century reality television.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cγrano Mudd]

...Uhura was in the same position as any lower ranked officer needing to take over when the commander is incapacitated. There is nothing suggesting an available male would step in over her.

Not so. The reason Uhura never took command is because she is not a line officer. She is the communications officer, which is to say, she holds officer rank, but in a specialized field (Hence the red shirt). Yes, I know other red shirts have sat in the big chair, but they were line officers with command training. Scotty is the third officer on the ship - he's a line officer with command training. Same thing with Sulu and Chekov. The pool of ship captains is typically drawn from nav/com/engineering fields.

Do you think the commo officer on an aircraft carrier would be put in command?
"Hey Frank, take the wheel."
Frank drops his donut. "Wha--?"

 

[Timo]

But there's no a priori reason to think that a redshirt from Communications and a redshirt from Navigation or Engineering would have different line officer qualifications or different levels of command training.

Also, no Trek reason to think this would be the case. It's just that Scotty, Sulu and Chekov get their brief turns at the center chair, while the best that Uhura ever gets is the navigation pulpit. For reasons never explicated.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

I guess I will just have to disagree on every single item and interpretation above... Again.

Look, I'm not out to disprove that Kirk would be a starship captain. It says so in his resume, I suppose, even without having seen that. What seems clear from TOS and necessary in the context is that Kirk is not a special starship captain, and furthermore that a starship captain is not a particularly rare or special position in Starfleet, any more than a ship captain is a rare or special position in today's navies. I.e. it is not a special captaincy in Starfleet, it's merely a captaincy in Starfleet, which makes it special as far as captaincies go.

Stone already says that random people in Starfleet, such as commanders of starbases, may be starship captains. He then summons two further starship captains from the nearest bar (we saw them hanging around there shortly before the shit hit the fan) for Kirk's trial.

Starfleet simply is the place where one finds starship captains. And Kirk risks becoming a famous one for being the first to stand trial for something that could end up badly for him. Prior to that, he has no known claim to fame.

Merrick is a civilian pointing out that Kirk is military. Finney is sarcastic. And McCoy is just sprouting random psychoshit. None of this would offer any support for Kirk being special among his own kind, or indeed special in any fashion, if it weren't for the fact that Kirk is the hero of a rather exciting bit of 23rd century reality television.

Timo Saloniemi

So if we disbelieve everything that is said and done in TOS then Kirk is indeed an ordinary captain.
You've convinced me.

Not so. The reason Uhura never took command is because she is not a line officer. She is the communications officer, which is to say, she holds officer rank, but in a specialized field (Hence the red shirt). Yes, I know other red shirts have sat in the big chair, but they were line officers with command training. Scotty is the third officer on the ship - he's a line officer with command training. Same thing with Sulu and Chekov. The pool of ship captains is typically drawn from nav/com/engineering fields.

Do you think the commo officer on an aircraft carrier would be put in command?
"Hey Frank, take the wheel."
Frank drops his donut. "Wha--?"

Maybe...
But it still proves the point if no woman on a ship of over 400 people is a line officer.

 

[Cγrano Mudd]

Maybe...
But it still proves the point if no woman on a ship of over 400 people is a line officer.

It doesn't prove any point at all, and stands only as the possible explanation that Uhura, by virtue of being a communications specialist, is probably not command-trained and not a line officer.

But there's no a priori reason to think that a redshirt from Communications and a redshirt from Navigation or Engineering would have different line officer qualifications or different levels of command training.

Also, no Trek reason to think this would be the case. It's just that Scotty, Sulu and Chekov get their brief turns at the center chair, while the best that Uhura ever gets is the navigation pulpit. For reasons never explicated.

Timo Saloniemi

It's clear if you know anything about the military and their organizational systems of specialization and division of responsibility.

An unrestricted line officer (shortened to URL officer) is a commissioned officer of the line in the United States Navy qualified for command at sea of the navy's warfighting combatant units such as warships, submarines, aviation squadrons and SEAL teams. They are also qualified to command the higher echelons of those units, such as destroyer and submarine squadrons, air wings and air groups, and special warfare groups.

Differentiated from URL officers are those naval officers whose functions are considered combat support in nature and are designated as either restricted line (RL) officers or staff corps officers.

Communications is a support function.

 

[Cγrano Mudd]

I would say that Uhura is a Restricted Line Officer, and able to command in the limited capacity of her specialization: a support element. Which is to say, command a team of commo specialists doing a task that is commo related.

 

[Timo]

It's clear if you know anything about the military and their organizational systems of specialization and division of responsibility.

But I don't, so tell me: why is a person pushing buttons at Comms different from a person pushing buttons at Navigation in this particular respect?

Both are obvious support functions, and realistically a machine could replace both. (In TNG, this has happened, and there are no Comms or Navigation officers any longer.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cγrano Mudd]

But I don't, so tell me: why is a person pushing buttons at Comms different from a person pushing buttons at Navigation in this particular respect?

Both are obvious support functions, and realistically a machine could replace both. (In TNG, this has happened, and there are no Comms or Navigation officers any longer.)

Timo Saloniemi

Your're going to have to read up on it, Timo. In short, pushing buttons at the comm station does not prepare you for ship command the way that pushing buttons at the helm or navigation console prepares you with ship command experience: operation/piloting/navigation/setting a course/tactics/combat operations/coordinating with other ships. That's why ship captains don't typically come from the communications field. Do you think that every officer on a naval ship is qualified to command that ship? That isn't the case. Command is a very particular specialization, and candidates usually come from bridge-qualified positions that actively involve them in ship operation/piloting/navigation/setting a course/tactics/combat operations/coordinating with other ships, not opening hailing frequencies.

Both are obvious support functions, and realistically a machine could replace both. (In TNG, this has happened, and there are no Comms or Navigation officers any longer.)

Timo Saloniemi

I am discussing Uhura, and so, TOS, which was overseen intimately by Roddenberry, who was a former military officer.

 

[Cγrano Mudd]

Navigation and piloting the ship are not support functions. They are mission-critical functions. A ship can move and fight independently under the captain's command without a communications officer, and even without communications from a higher headquarters. It doesn't affect a ship's immediate, tactical warfighting capabilities.

 

[johnnybear]

Even DeSalle took the con in one episode I recall and he had changed from yellow shirt to red!
JB