#MakeTheFederationGreatAgain
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Overall for me - a 7.
The production values were nice, and there were great character moments here and there (and that's what earns it a 7 from me); but overall, it was a very trope filled and uninspired ending to what is supposedly such a large galactic war. For me (and something which was all too common this season) - the 'war' didn't come across as that big a deal and the writers were just phoning it in here big time.
My big issues as regards to the 'End of war episode':
- Where was the Fleet that should have been in Sol/Earth space waiting for the Klingons ? We saw a nice zoom back from Earth to the approaching Klingon Fleet with ZERO Federation (or Vulcan or Andorian, etc.) waiting to engage them? (And yes, with the plan the Starfleet Admiralty had ACTUALLY approved - said Fleet would have been free to protect Earth.
- Okay, so the Discovery Jumps into a cavern...fine. But come on - Burnham and Co, don't even try to disguise themselves as Orions (or some race OTHER than Humans). Yes, they are in an area supposedly ceded for use by Orions (why that is who knows as it DOESN'T seem like something Klingons of any era would do - but hey that's what was written); BUT STILL you'd think any Kligon military/citizens/etc. would go - "Hey, WTF are Humans doing HERE on Qonos??!! - Especially one fluent in Klingon??!! Maybe we should alert the authorities?"
- Burnham can supposedly contact Starfleet on Discovery from under the planet - and the Klingons don't even detect the Federation signal? (Not to mention that in 9 years time, various Starships will have trouble communicating to landing party members underground; and hell Kirk's Transporter couldn't normally Beam through 100 KM of rock without 'assistance' (see TOS - "All Our Yesterdays"); but again here's Discovery DEEP beneath Qoonos and the Transporters have zero issues beaming through the mantle of the planet.
- I also groaned at the 'We're Starfleet - we won't go through with this..." (which is the kind of trite crap we'd see from 24th century Utopian characters.) I'm NOT saying that this isn't the ultimate decision they should have come to; more that not one person on the Bridge had a different viewpoint or spoke to the Admiralty's position (IE Give it a TOS resolution with a couple of characters willing to sacrifice Qoonos to save Earth...Hell, there was so much ridiculous nonsensical filler on the Planet there was time for a little TOS Kirk/McCoy/Spock/Scotty-esque argument.) Again, the fact this exact same Bridge crew (including Saru) was ready to string Burnham up at the start of the series for all the friends and family they lost - the fact they're all so willing to sacrifice Earth at this point (without a really workable/different plan available to them at that point) is a bit ridiculous (IMO).
- Also the way they have L'Rell 'end the war' and 'unify the Klingons'...please. I mean hell, she didn't bother to mention in her short speech that the Bomb was tied to her vital signs (and it's only something I assumed because I believe MU Georgiu mentioned that. Assuming that's the case, I don't buy that the 24 Houses would stand for that - but they WOULD recall their Fleets to start a Civil war to both take out L'Rell (without blowing up the Planet) - and then maybe continuing the civil war until someone comes out on top. Also, once said situation is resolved - IF the Klingons found out the Bomb CAME from the Federation, you'd think they'd RESUME said war, and this time take Earth out just for doing that...
^^^
Do I think we'll see any such commentary or fallout from all the above in ST: D Season 2? If they keep the same writing staff probably not as honestly - even with just 15 episodes this entire arc was a convoluted nonsensical mess as far as the whole Fed/Klingon War was concerned. (And again, I think the whole MU tie in WAS Bryan Fuller's big event tie in because it's just the kind of weird stuff he loves; but unless he ever really discusses what his original idea was - we'll never know.)
Lastly, with the 1701 Enterprise ACTUALLY shown on screen in the final minute of the episode, one thing can be 100% put to rest:
ST: D IS A SOFT REBOOT - PERIOD. It is using the same basic canon from the actual original 23rd century true TOS era as a basic jump off point - but that's it. I view it as what the JJ Verse would have looked like if JJ Abrams hadn't done a Time-Loop/Alternate Reality Reboot that attempted to fully preserve the existing 720 or so episodes plus the feature films that comprised the Star Trek franchise up to 2009.
The funny thing is (and I'm a HUGE TOS fan watching first run since 1969) - I am fine with that; BUT I really don't care that the ultimate Creators and Writing Staff of ST: D trying to claim - "No, it's not a reboot, we're TOS fans and know canon too - trust us, it'll all work out in the end..." BS. I wish they hadn't been so disingenuous about it and had just said, "Yeah, it's a reboot of certain aspects..." <--- And if Tim Sullivan and the others continue to try and claim this isn't a reboot of TOS era Star Trek, I have zero respect for any of them for not having the balls to just finally admit it to the numerous TOS fans who just wanted an honest answer to that question.
Again, I don't hate what they did here overall. They did some good stuff I enjoyed and was entertained by - and I'm looking forward to Season 2 - but just quit insulting my intelligence and stop claiming this will lead to the actual TOS many of us older fans saw and LOVE to this day. Call it what it is. A reboot.
Best case for the future: I really do wish they'd get some ACTUAL TOS era fans on the writing staff of this show for Season 2; and that the current staff would just stop paying lip service to us TOS era fans and come clean as to their actual motivation and intentions. Just stop trying to claim it's not a reboot.
The production values were nice, and there were great character moments here and there (and that's what earns it a 7 from me); but overall, it was a very trope filled and uninspired ending to what is supposedly such a large galactic war. For me (and something which was all too common this season) - the 'war' didn't come across as that big a deal and the writers were just phoning it in here big time.
My big issues as regards to the 'End of war episode':
- Where was the Fleet that should have been in Sol/Earth space waiting for the Klingons ? We saw a nice zoom back from Earth to the approaching Klingon Fleet with ZERO Federation (or Vulcan or Andorian, etc.) waiting to engage them? (And yes, with the plan the Starfleet Admiralty had ACTUALLY approved - said Fleet would have been free to protect Earth.
- Okay, so the Discovery Jumps into a cavern...fine. But come on - Burnham and Co, don't even try to disguise themselves as Orions (or some race OTHER than Humans). Yes, they are in an area supposedly ceded for use by Orions (why that is who knows as it DOESN'T seem like something Klingons of any era would do - but hey that's what was written); BUT STILL you'd think any Kligon military/citizens/etc. would go - "Hey, WTF are Humans doing HERE on Qonos??!! - Especially one fluent in Klingon??!! Maybe we should alert the authorities?"
- Burnham can supposedly contact Starfleet on Discovery from under the planet - and the Klingons don't even detect the Federation signal? (Not to mention that in 9 years time, various Starships will have trouble communicating to landing party members underground; and hell Kirk's Transporter couldn't normally Beam through 100 KM of rock without 'assistance' (see TOS - "All Our Yesterdays"); but again here's Discovery DEEP beneath Qoonos and the Transporters have zero issues beaming through the mantle of the planet.
- I also groaned at the 'We're Starfleet - we won't go through with this..." (which is the kind of trite crap we'd see from 24th century Utopian characters.) I'm NOT saying that this isn't the ultimate decision they should have come to; more that not one person on the Bridge had a different viewpoint or spoke to the Admiralty's position (IE Give it a TOS resolution with a couple of characters willing to sacrifice Qoonos to save Earth...Hell, there was so much ridiculous nonsensical filler on the Planet there was time for a little TOS Kirk/McCoy/Spock/Scotty-esque argument.) Again, the fact this exact same Bridge crew (including Saru) was ready to string Burnham up at the start of the series for all the friends and family they lost - the fact they're all so willing to sacrifice Earth at this point (without a really workable/different plan available to them at that point) is a bit ridiculous (IMO).
- Also the way they have L'Rell 'end the war' and 'unify the Klingons'...please. I mean hell, she didn't bother to mention in her short speech that the Bomb was tied to her vital signs (and it's only something I assumed because I believe MU Georgiu mentioned that. Assuming that's the case, I don't buy that the 24 Houses would stand for that - but they WOULD recall their Fleets to start a Civil war to both take out L'Rell (without blowing up the Planet) - and then maybe continuing the civil war until someone comes out on top. Also, once said situation is resolved - IF the Klingons found out the Bomb CAME from the Federation, you'd think they'd RESUME said war, and this time take Earth out just for doing that...
^^^
Do I think we'll see any such commentary or fallout from all the above in ST: D Season 2? If they keep the same writing staff probably not as honestly - even with just 15 episodes this entire arc was a convoluted nonsensical mess as far as the whole Fed/Klingon War was concerned. (And again, I think the whole MU tie in WAS Bryan Fuller's big event tie in because it's just the kind of weird stuff he loves; but unless he ever really discusses what his original idea was - we'll never know.)
Lastly, with the 1701 Enterprise ACTUALLY shown on screen in the final minute of the episode, one thing can be 100% put to rest:
ST: D IS A SOFT REBOOT - PERIOD. It is using the same basic canon from the actual original 23rd century true TOS era as a basic jump off point - but that's it. I view it as what the JJ Verse would have looked like if JJ Abrams hadn't done a Time-Loop/Alternate Reality Reboot that attempted to fully preserve the existing 720 or so episodes plus the feature films that comprised the Star Trek franchise up to 2009.
The funny thing is (and I'm a HUGE TOS fan watching first run since 1969) - I am fine with that; BUT I really don't care that the ultimate Creators and Writing Staff of ST: D trying to claim - "No, it's not a reboot, we're TOS fans and know canon too - trust us, it'll all work out in the end..." BS. I wish they hadn't been so disingenuous about it and had just said, "Yeah, it's a reboot of certain aspects..." <--- And if Tim Sullivan and the others continue to try and claim this isn't a reboot of TOS era Star Trek, I have zero respect for any of them for not having the balls to just finally admit it to the numerous TOS fans who just wanted an honest answer to that question.
Again, I don't hate what they did here overall. They did some good stuff I enjoyed and was entertained by - and I'm looking forward to Season 2 - but just quit insulting my intelligence and stop claiming this will lead to the actual TOS many of us older fans saw and LOVE to this day. Call it what it is. A reboot.
Best case for the future: I really do wish they'd get some ACTUAL TOS era fans on the writing staff of this show for Season 2; and that the current staff would just stop paying lip service to us TOS era fans and come clean as to their actual motivation and intentions. Just stop trying to claim it's not a reboot.
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You know, bringing up The Voyage Home at this point would be too easy, so instead I'm going to point out the numerous times Riker, Data and Worf flouted the rules and didn't get anything worse than a stern lecture.
She's a big hero now? Starfleet is screwed.
Ever seen his one man show? That was a lot of fun. His story about the day after the Moon Landing was hilarious.
Yeah but they are likeable characters.
Can't wait for season 2. I already miss all of them - Ed, Kelly, Alara, Bortus, doctor Finn...
See ya around evil space hitler, be good
Don’t be a knucklehead
Don’t be a knucklehead
You felt really liked Riker, Data, and Worf just after season 1?
Of course. You didn't?
Data was lovable by "The Neutral Zone" if not before then.
"Hooey?"
"Hooey?"
Okay. I've read ten pages so far but the thread is growing fast, so i'ma throw in some comments of my own...
From the moment I saw during the opening credits that Akiva Goldsman was credited as both a writer and director on this episode, my expectations fell. The man's talent is measured in negative numbers — everything he touches becomes unwatchable.
In light of that, while the episode was a disappointment, it wasn't as terrible as I might have feared. In terms of major plot beats:
* Georgiou's secret evil plan was to set off a genocidal planet-killing bomb? I mean, that's awful and all, but it's also kind of simple. I was expecting something more. Especially when we were told (and shown) that the Klingon fleet literally had Earth in its sights. Did anyone expect that the fleet would leave Earth alone if Qo'nos were destroyed?
* Sure was awfully convenient that the bomb operated from a remote detonator — and a handheld one at that — rather than being on a timer or controlled from the ship.
* Cornwell, who once seemed like a complex and interesting character, basically got character-assassinated for the sake of moving the plot forward. She said last episode that not just Starfleet but the Federation Council approved of putting Georgiou in command of the mission, and indeed it's unlikely that she would've tried such a thing without such high-level approval. It's even more unlikely that she would've approved the actual planet-killing plan without equally high-level endorsement (although I personally find it even more unlikely that the Federation would countenance such a thing). Given that, how could she then reverse the plan on her own authority? And why would she reverse it — a plan on which she had clearly staked her position and professional reputation, and in which (we were asked to accept that) she strongly believed — in response to nothing more than 30 seconds of pushback from a few bridge officers, with only the riskiest of alternatives to offer?
* As to that alternative: they gave the detonator to L'rell? This was their plan for peace? Seriously? I mean, I realize she was the only Klingon left on the show with an actual name, so I suppose she got it by default, but it just doesn't wash. She's a fanatical religious ideologue, so there's no reason for Starfleet to trust her... but she also spent almost the entire war as either a fugitive or a captive of the enemy, so there's no reason for other Klingons to trust her, either. She can hold up a touchscreen tablet, sure, but there is literally no reason any Klingon should believe her story about a buried planet-killing bomb, and no way for her to prove it... and even if they do, there's honestly nothing about her to indicate she has the leadership qualities it would take either to bring about peace or to unify the Empire.
* So, basically, the end of the war was (as I'd feared) hasty and contrived in the extreme.
Bits I liked:
* It was nice to see Qo'nos depicted as a planet people actually live on, rather than just a giant military / government compound. Even nicer to see that it has diplomatic relations with other non-aligned powers, like the Orions. This was an unexpected nod to political and social realism.
* Shazad Latif did possibly his best acting of the entire season this episode.
* To my relief, they did not have a big cliched one-on-one fight between Georgiou and Burnham.
* It was a cool cliffhanger (of sorts) having the Enterprise turn up at the end. The music was a delight, too.
Smaller things that annoyed me:
* Georgiou all but outed herself in conversation with Saru on the bridge, but then threatened Burnham for doing the same thing? And then just minutes later casually revealed her origins to Tilly? Does she care whether her status is secret, or not?
* Once it became clear to Georgiou that she didn't have Burnham's loyalties, why would she want her on the landing party? What special skills did she have (aside from being the show's viewpoint character) that someone else couldn't have performed better?
* The same goes double for Tilly. Enlisting her for this mission just drove home the point that the show doesn't have enough characters to go around.
* The Orion compound on Qo'nos basically looked like someone was trying really hard to recapture the vibe of Blade Runner, except on a much lower budget.
* Where exactly was Cornwell, anyway? She didn't leave with Sarek last episode, and was on board through the very final scene... yet this episode, they had to contact her by holo.
* Georgiou goes free? Aargh. Does anyone in Starfleet think she actually performed any valuable service at all, or that she's going to do anything except cause trouble? I really, really don't want to see her again — unlike some, I find the character boring and think Michelle Yeoh is wasted in this role — but I did want to see her brought to justice. This was very unsatisfying.
* Now that Tyler's super-contrived sleeper-agent plot is concluded (however pointlessly), and now that I'm finally finding him a more interesting (and better-acted) character, he's being unceremoniously shuffled off the show? Great. So now even fewer characters.
* Burnham still has all the charisma of cardboard. She almost had one good moment in her Kirk-like speech to Cornwell, but then it went away again.
* The writers treated Sarek almost as badly as Cornwell. It surpasses belief that he would have gone along with Georgiou's genocidal plan. In light of the fact that he did, his reconciliation with Burnham at the end rings awfully hollow.
* After all the speculation about how the spore drive could "fit" into canon, they unceremoniously had Starfleet shelve it ("temporarily") with a single line of dialogue? After it not only won the war, but was revealed to be able to travel through time as well? Talk about straining credulity.
* Why exactly did Burnham say "U.S.S. Enterprise" at the end? It kinda rang false in the moment, since they already knew the distress call was from a Starfleet ship, and every one of those has the same letters in front of its name.
And about that ship and its appearance!...
* Much like the episode itself (and the series overall, I suppose), it was neither as bad as I'd feared nor as good as I'd hoped.
* In terms of design, it seems fairly close to the original 1701, with just a bit of the movie-era ship thrown in. I really don't think any changes were necessary at all, but it's certainly closer than the misshapen atrocity in the Kelvinverse films, at least. The engineering section is the right shape, and it has the outboard deflector dish and even (I think) a bit of an undercut on the saucer section. And (yay!) the nacelles are cylindrical, albeit needlessly tapered and excessively pointy at the ends.
* In terms of how that design was executed, I was less pleased. I really wanted to be impressed by the ship's beauty, grace, and grandeur (as in the flybys in TMP and TWOK), but I just wasn't. The texturing and aztecing on the hull was garishly excessive, and the lighting (as in all this show's FX scenes) did it no favors. On first impression, it looked dark, heavy, and ominous, rather than light, sleek, and elegant.
* Basically, I hope whoever's in charge of FX next season has a change of philosophy about how the show's ships and space scenes should look. There's a lot of room for improvement.
As to what's coming up storywise in Season Two (whenever we get it)? I hope it's good enough to justify teasing us with the Enterprise... but I'm not holding my breath.
From the moment I saw during the opening credits that Akiva Goldsman was credited as both a writer and director on this episode, my expectations fell. The man's talent is measured in negative numbers — everything he touches becomes unwatchable.
In light of that, while the episode was a disappointment, it wasn't as terrible as I might have feared. In terms of major plot beats:
* Georgiou's secret evil plan was to set off a genocidal planet-killing bomb? I mean, that's awful and all, but it's also kind of simple. I was expecting something more. Especially when we were told (and shown) that the Klingon fleet literally had Earth in its sights. Did anyone expect that the fleet would leave Earth alone if Qo'nos were destroyed?
* Sure was awfully convenient that the bomb operated from a remote detonator — and a handheld one at that — rather than being on a timer or controlled from the ship.
* Cornwell, who once seemed like a complex and interesting character, basically got character-assassinated for the sake of moving the plot forward. She said last episode that not just Starfleet but the Federation Council approved of putting Georgiou in command of the mission, and indeed it's unlikely that she would've tried such a thing without such high-level approval. It's even more unlikely that she would've approved the actual planet-killing plan without equally high-level endorsement (although I personally find it even more unlikely that the Federation would countenance such a thing). Given that, how could she then reverse the plan on her own authority? And why would she reverse it — a plan on which she had clearly staked her position and professional reputation, and in which (we were asked to accept that) she strongly believed — in response to nothing more than 30 seconds of pushback from a few bridge officers, with only the riskiest of alternatives to offer?
* As to that alternative: they gave the detonator to L'rell? This was their plan for peace? Seriously? I mean, I realize she was the only Klingon left on the show with an actual name, so I suppose she got it by default, but it just doesn't wash. She's a fanatical religious ideologue, so there's no reason for Starfleet to trust her... but she also spent almost the entire war as either a fugitive or a captive of the enemy, so there's no reason for other Klingons to trust her, either. She can hold up a touchscreen tablet, sure, but there is literally no reason any Klingon should believe her story about a buried planet-killing bomb, and no way for her to prove it... and even if they do, there's honestly nothing about her to indicate she has the leadership qualities it would take either to bring about peace or to unify the Empire.
* So, basically, the end of the war was (as I'd feared) hasty and contrived in the extreme.
Bits I liked:
* It was nice to see Qo'nos depicted as a planet people actually live on, rather than just a giant military / government compound. Even nicer to see that it has diplomatic relations with other non-aligned powers, like the Orions. This was an unexpected nod to political and social realism.
* Shazad Latif did possibly his best acting of the entire season this episode.
* To my relief, they did not have a big cliched one-on-one fight between Georgiou and Burnham.
* It was a cool cliffhanger (of sorts) having the Enterprise turn up at the end. The music was a delight, too.
Smaller things that annoyed me:
* Georgiou all but outed herself in conversation with Saru on the bridge, but then threatened Burnham for doing the same thing? And then just minutes later casually revealed her origins to Tilly? Does she care whether her status is secret, or not?
* Once it became clear to Georgiou that she didn't have Burnham's loyalties, why would she want her on the landing party? What special skills did she have (aside from being the show's viewpoint character) that someone else couldn't have performed better?
* The same goes double for Tilly. Enlisting her for this mission just drove home the point that the show doesn't have enough characters to go around.
* The Orion compound on Qo'nos basically looked like someone was trying really hard to recapture the vibe of Blade Runner, except on a much lower budget.
* Where exactly was Cornwell, anyway? She didn't leave with Sarek last episode, and was on board through the very final scene... yet this episode, they had to contact her by holo.
* Georgiou goes free? Aargh. Does anyone in Starfleet think she actually performed any valuable service at all, or that she's going to do anything except cause trouble? I really, really don't want to see her again — unlike some, I find the character boring and think Michelle Yeoh is wasted in this role — but I did want to see her brought to justice. This was very unsatisfying.
* Now that Tyler's super-contrived sleeper-agent plot is concluded (however pointlessly), and now that I'm finally finding him a more interesting (and better-acted) character, he's being unceremoniously shuffled off the show? Great. So now even fewer characters.
* Burnham still has all the charisma of cardboard. She almost had one good moment in her Kirk-like speech to Cornwell, but then it went away again.
* The writers treated Sarek almost as badly as Cornwell. It surpasses belief that he would have gone along with Georgiou's genocidal plan. In light of the fact that he did, his reconciliation with Burnham at the end rings awfully hollow.
* After all the speculation about how the spore drive could "fit" into canon, they unceremoniously had Starfleet shelve it ("temporarily") with a single line of dialogue? After it not only won the war, but was revealed to be able to travel through time as well? Talk about straining credulity.
* Why exactly did Burnham say "U.S.S. Enterprise" at the end? It kinda rang false in the moment, since they already knew the distress call was from a Starfleet ship, and every one of those has the same letters in front of its name.
And about that ship and its appearance!...
* Much like the episode itself (and the series overall, I suppose), it was neither as bad as I'd feared nor as good as I'd hoped.
* In terms of design, it seems fairly close to the original 1701, with just a bit of the movie-era ship thrown in. I really don't think any changes were necessary at all, but it's certainly closer than the misshapen atrocity in the Kelvinverse films, at least. The engineering section is the right shape, and it has the outboard deflector dish and even (I think) a bit of an undercut on the saucer section. And (yay!) the nacelles are cylindrical, albeit needlessly tapered and excessively pointy at the ends.
* In terms of how that design was executed, I was less pleased. I really wanted to be impressed by the ship's beauty, grace, and grandeur (as in the flybys in TMP and TWOK), but I just wasn't. The texturing and aztecing on the hull was garishly excessive, and the lighting (as in all this show's FX scenes) did it no favors. On first impression, it looked dark, heavy, and ominous, rather than light, sleek, and elegant.
* Basically, I hope whoever's in charge of FX next season has a change of philosophy about how the show's ships and space scenes should look. There's a lot of room for improvement.
As to what's coming up storywise in Season Two (whenever we get it)? I hope it's good enough to justify teasing us with the Enterprise... but I'm not holding my breath.
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When they were giving the medels they ignored the background characters. That actually really bothered me. Stop treating your characters like wall paper, show. Even the original series didn't treat it's minor characters this bad.
Nope. Actually I never liked Riker. Didn't appreciate Worf's character until DS9, and he was never likable (worst dad in star trek, makes Sarek look like father of the year, the way he treated Ezri was terrible, etc). Liked Data though, from the get-go.
His treating of Ezri was bad but you could see why. They did make up.
Now what she did to Bashir was worse.
They worked together in Desperate Hours, when Enterprise and Shenzou were dealing with the same crisis.
Good story but they did make Pike a bit of an idiot to make Georgiou look better I feel.
Technically not the best, but cumulatively it worked. Certainly enough to bring me back next year--but once again with reservations.... Chaos in the front office, a "very good" result nonetheless. Something that after 12 years of no Trek should mean something. Unless you're not into Trek, that is.
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