The Good Place Season 2

[shivkala]

There's just something...insincere...about this being a simulation. As far as I remember, we know nothing of Earth after their deaths, so until I see otherwise, I'm going to assume it doesn't change anything to prevent their deaths, except to rewind a few seconds.

I think this is a means to determine whether or not their whole concept is flawed or not, rather than a trial run for everyone on Earth. If it proves that their concept of the Good Place and Bad Place are flawed, then they will have to try something else.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I think it has to be them really on Earth and not any kind of a simulation for it to be legitimate. If it were a simulation, that would mean the judge is actively pushing Eleanor away from progress (through the bad behavior of those around her). Since the whole concept at issue is whether Eleanor can better herself through free will, the judge can't take the risk of basing the simulation on improper assumptions or in any way unconsciously weighting it for or against the participants. Putting them back on Earth among regular people (which is the natural environment of free will) is the only valid testing ground.

And as for complaints about this changing history - this is just four people, and they're unlikely to make big sweeping changes to the world. And even if they do, nothing says that their 'second chance' lives will remain part of history. Once the experiment is over the judge could easily rewind everything so that they die when they were supposed to, only with (hopefully) a chance at a better afterlife.

 

[tomalak301]

In terms of changing history, are they really changing history though if they've been dead? Doesn't their history stop when they die, and there is no concept of time in The Good/Bad place. Being sent to just prior to their deaths kind of starts their history up again after a long pause.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

In terms of changing history, are they really changing history though if they've been dead? Doesn't their history stop when they die, and there is no concept of time in The Good/Bad place. Being sent to just prior to their deaths kind of starts their history up again after a long pause.

Well, sure (ish), but I thought we were talking about everyone else's history which theoretically is changed because they didn't die.

 

[shivkala]

I think it has to be them really on Earth and not any kind of a simulation for it to be legitimate. If it were a simulation, that would mean the judge is actively pushing Eleanor away from progress (through the bad behavior of those around her). Since the whole concept at issue is whether Eleanor can better herself through free will, the judge can't take the risk of basing the simulation on improper assumptions or in any way unconsciously weighting it for or against the participants. Putting them back on Earth among regular people (which is the natural environment of free will) is the only valid testing ground.

That's what makes it insincere, you just put it better than I did!

They've been shown to have a lack of understanding of human nature, so any simulation would lack genuine human interactions. Also, as you've said, in a simulation, the bad things happening to Eleanor are fabricated.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I would be really disappointed if Earth were just a simulation. Bringing the characters back to a real Earth, having them continue living after their death and where they actions will have real consequences as to their final destination in the after life, is much more interesting.

 

[tomalak301]

I would be really disappointed if Earth were just a simulation. Bringing the characters back to a real Earth, having them continue living after their death and where they actions will have real consequences as to their final destination in the after life, is much more interesting.

Considering where we have been with this series I am giving the writers the benefit of the doubt .

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't think it'd be insincere being a simulation, given what we know of Michael's powers he could make everyone react exactly the way they would have on Earth.

Personally I think it'd be much more insincere if they made the passage of time since their deaths meaningless. I think it works very well if so much time has passed that Earth is totally unrecognizable by this point.

 

[JD]

Why should the passage of time on Earth matter? What was going on on Earth while they were dead has no impact whatsoever. We don't even know for sure if time even passed while they were dead.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I don't think it'd be insincere being a simulation, given what we know of Michael's powers he could make everyone react exactly the way they would have on Earth.

Personally I think it'd be much more insincere if they made the passage of time since their deaths meaningless. I think it works very well if so much time has passed that Earth is totally unrecognizable by this point.

Aside from the passage of time being completely irrelevant (it would be equally plausible for the entire series to have occurred in the span of a nanosecond on earth as for it to have occurred in the span of a trillion earth centuries), the fact that this whole dilemma exists in the first place is proof positive that Michael and even the Judge don't really understand people to the deep extent that they have previously believed.

The only purpose of this test is to prove or disprove whether the basic assumptions that guide their view of humanity were actually wrong all along. Any test built on their own assumptions is inherently biased. The test is only valid if they have absolutely no part in creating it (ie, if it occurs on earth, in Humanity's natural environment, without any angelic assumptions underpinning it).

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Aside from the passage of time being completely irrelevant (it would be equally plausible for the entire series to have occurred in the span of a nanosecond on earth as for it to have occurred in the span of a trillion earth centuries), the fact that this whole dilemma exists in the first place is proof positive that Michael and even the Judge don't really understand people to the deep extent that they have previously believed.

The only purpose of this test is to prove or disprove whether the basic assumptions that guide their view of humanity were actually wrong all along. Any test built on their own assumptions is inherently biased. The test is only valid if they have absolutely no part in creating it (ie, if it occurs on earth, in Humanity's natural environment, without any angelic assumptions underpinning it).

You think they couldn't create a perfect simulation of Earth and perfect simulation of all the people on it?

If time was compressed to a nanosecond, Mindy would have to have died the same year as everyone else.

To me it just seems like if they were actually on Earth, and they went back and changed time, it would just seem kinda cheap. I really don't want these demons to have the power of resurrection, because I want there to be *some* rules to the show and not feel like the writers have given themselves license to do whatever whenever however. In my eyes it would cheapen the silly mythology they've created for there to really be none in the first place.

 

[Jayson1]

Here is something I want to know. Did everyone on the show die at the same time on the same day? In theory when we see Eleanor we could see her meet Jason, for example, only to meet Jason who won't die for another 5 days. What if you prevented a death but in away where the person never got to go to the afterlife and become a better person? The Impression I got is the Eleanor might not recall Chidi or anyone or anything from the afterlife for the most part but she still sort of recalls it or feels it on a subconscious level.

Jason

 

[Grendelsbayne]

You think they couldn't create a perfect simulation of Earth and perfect simulation of all the people on it?

No. Not a chance. You can't create a perfect simulation of something you don't perfectly understand. The fact that this test is even necessary at all is proof they don't perfectly understand humans.

If time was compressed to a nanosecond, Mindy would have to have died the same year as everyone else.

No she wouldn't have. There is no reason whatsoever why the passage of time in the afterlife must be directly linked to the passage of time in the real world. The afterlife should have access to any time they may have cause to access, anyway.

To me it just seems like if they were actually on Earth, and they went back and changed time, it would just seem kinda cheap. I really don't want these demons to have the power of resurrection, because I want there to be *some* rules to the show and not feel like the writers have given themselves license to do whatever whenever however. In my eyes it would cheapen the silly mythology they've created for there to really be none in the first place.

You're ignoring the fact that making it a simulation is actually breaking the rules already established about what they can and can't do, because they clearly can't make a perfect simulation. And I don't see how resurrection is the one powerful thing they should never be allowed to play around with - it makes perfect thematic sense within the show and it absolutely does not make the demons all powerful.

Here is something I want to know. Did everyone on the show die at the same time on the same day? In theory when we see Eleanor we could see her meet Jason, for example, only to meet Jason who won't die for another 5 days. What if you prevented a death but in away where the person never got to go to the afterlife and become a better person? The Impression I got is the Eleanor might not recall Chidi or anyone or anything from the afterlife for the most part but she still sort of recalls it or feels it on a subconscious level.

Jason

It's possible but entirely unconfirmed. They certainly all lived in the same general time period, but beyond that we don't know.

And I don't think Eleanor recalls or feels anything on a subconcious level. I think she is just the kind of person who has potential to turn her life around given the right stimulus (like a near death experience) and she has a generally strong natural gravitation towards Chidi.

 

[Jayson1]

No. Not a chance. You can't create a perfect simulation of something you don't perfectly understand. The fact that this test is even necessary at all is proof they don't perfectly understand humans.



No she wouldn't have. There is no reason whatsoever why the passage of time in the afterlife must be directly linked to the passage of time in the real world. The afterlife should have access to any time they may have cause to access, anyway.



You're ignoring the fact that making it a simulation is actually breaking the rules already established about what they can and can't do, because they clearly can't make a perfect simulation. And I don't see how resurrection is the one powerful thing they should never be allowed to play around with - it makes perfect thematic sense within the show and it absolutely does not make the demons all powerful.



It's possible but entirely unconfirmed. They certainly all lived in the same general time period, but beyond that we don't know.

And I don't think Eleanor recalls or feels anything on a subconcious level. I think she is just the kind of person who has potential to turn her life around given the right stimulus (like a near death experience) and she has a generally strong natural gravitation towards Chidi.

One issue I could see happening though is if their experiences in The Good Place had no impact on them it could mean then you don't really need to change the system to much. It just means all you need to do is put REAL bad people in the scenario and it will work fine. Not sure if sending the message of changing the criteria of who deserves to be tortured instead of whether or not torture should even be done is such a great message. I see the system being judged just as much as the main characters. You also have a slavery angle as well since humans are at the wim of these demons and the Janet's also seem to have no free will and even the demons and I guess angels as well which I think we might see also basically being controlled by God. I can only imagine the outrage though if the show implied that God is a slave owning dictator.


Jason

 

[JD]

I can't believe I missed this, but apparently back around the time the second season a bookstore in Oxford actually set up a "Chidi's Choice" table featuring philosophy books referenced in the TGP, or just inspired by it.

 

[dahj]

Chidi's choice?

But he can't make any choice, how did they recommend anything?

 

[Matthew Raymond]

I just realized that Chidi embodies the concept of "those who can't teach".

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I started watching the show from the start, to see how I'd watch it differently knowing the twist.

I find myself thinking, "HOW did I not see this the first time?!?!" Some of it is so over the top obvious, I guess because in first season we saw Michael as being an incompetent Good Place coordinator so all his obvious torture could just be seen as him being bad at his job.

But this board predicted all the major twists in Westworld and Discovery, how did we miss this one?

 

[tomalak301]

I started watching the show from the start, to see how I'd watch it differently knowing the twist.

I find myself thinking, "HOW did I not see this the first time?!?!" Some of it is so over the top obvious, I guess because in first season we saw Michael as being an incompetent Good Place coordinator so all his obvious torture could just be seen as him being bad at his job.

But this board predicted all the major twists in Westworld and Discovery, how did we miss this one?

I wonder if it's because every episode you're just caught up in the moment you don't really care to speculate what comes next. I know with season to last year, every episode was hysterical, especially the Trolley problem episode. Who needs to speculate about the future when you're enjoying the present.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Ted Danson's body language is so obviously sarcastic half the time. "If you want to spend all of eternity getting blunt feedback on your writing, I'm happy to help!"

I can't believe we missed this.