Spoilers Lorca Theory

[RuthlessNate]

You don't think Lorca just wants the throne for himself? He did attempt a coup, after all.

VVV This VVV

If you are rebelling against a dictatorship, the best way to eliminate it is to get rid of the dictator.

Also, calling it a coup attempt may be propaganda. The Empire wouldn't want anyone to know that one of its distinguished captains attempted to assassinate the Emperor in the name of freedom for lowly alien races. Safer to claim he tried to take power for himself, like a "good" Terran.

 

[Tosk]

I'd be pretty bummed if the whole point was that MU Lorca escaped his universe and then his plan was to get command of a starship with a new form of drive and then took Burnham under his wing so that if he ever got back he could get her to pretend to be MU Burnham so that he could maybe get taken to the Empress as a prisoner because he could never force his way on board her ship...it's a little too much like a BvS-Lex-Luthor plan to me. We'll see.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also, calling it a coup attempt may be propaganda. The Empire wouldn't want anyone to know that one of its distinguished captains attempted to assassinate the Emperor in the name of freedom for lowly alien races. Safer to claim he tried to take power for himself, like a "good" Terran.

Good point...

 

[RuthlessNate]

I'd be pretty bummed if the whole point was that MU Lorca escaped his universe and then his plan was to get command of a starship with a new form of drive and then took Burnham under his wing so that if he ever got back he could get her to pretend to be MU Burnham so that he could maybe get taken to the Empress as a prisoner because he could never force his way on board her ship...it's a little too much like a BvS-Lex-Luthor plan to me. We'll see.

Yeah, it's far-fetched. I would definitely prefer the Occam's Razor explanation in this situation: That he's originally from the Prime universe, just like everyone else, and he's just kind of fucked in the head and shady.

 

[David cgc]

If coincidences are a problem the entire MU concept breaks.

Sure, but Lorca doesn't know he's a fictional character encountering an implausible dramatic device. Hence his musings on "destiny."

Furthermore, do you really *want* Lorca to be from the MU?

Not really, but that seems to be where the evidence is pointing. Either way, I feel like we've been seeing more of the "real" Lorca since the time-loop episode, and his harsher acts before that were more of a pose. So the way I see it, Lorca can be an unusually harsh and multilayered Prime universe character, or he can be an unusually compassionate and multilayered Mirror universe character. He'd be the first MU denizen who got to be a person, on his own, and not a reflection of some other character. That'd be interesting.

It'd be like if Baltar had turned out to be a cylon.

Though, to be fair, the half-second in "Downloaded" where Baltar is next to the newly-resurrected Six before explaining he's a hallucination was the greatest fake-out in history, and if they actually had shown Baltar was a cylon out of nowhere like that, I probably wouldn't have minded. But, then, BSG was a little different, since it started with the premise that anyone might be a secret Cylon (even though a lot of the fandom apparently forgot about that by the time they paid it off). Discovery hasn't been quite the same about teasing surprise secret agendas (though they certainly exist).

 

[WarpFactorZ]

</thread>!!!!!

 

[Tosk]

I'd be pretty bummed if the whole point was that MU Lorca escaped his universe and then his plan was to get command of a starship with a new form of drive and then took Burnham under his wing so that if he ever got back he could get her to pretend to be MU Burnham so that he could maybe get taken to the Empress as a prisoner because he could never force his way on board her ship...it's a little too much like a BvS-Lex-Luthor plan to me. We'll see.

I am a little bummed, but not as bad as I thought I would be.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm bummed. I'm very bummed.

More bumming going on here than a gay orgy.

Dammit!

 

[Sci-fi fan]

Personally, I think it was a mistake to start the series like that. I had written a thread in the beginning of the show calling them out for abusing the franchise against the Roddenberry vision. Some people here and elsewhere told me I was exaggerating. The writer of the show himself on After Trek told us explictly that fans like myself were perfectly right and the Roddenberry vision was respected from the start because of this arc.

See, the problem though is that why start the show that way and for so many episodes? We didn't have a Roddenberry-esque Trek on TV for a very long time and the trope of having evil villains on tv being the main characters had gone too far in the past few years.

I mean, we've gone through a whole decade of a trope of entire shows like Game of Thrones and its influence-ees having almost 99% of the entire cast acting like villains from a villain universe and I was hoping Trek would be Trek from the start.

 

[zenophite]

I have mixed to negative feelings about this Lorca revelation.

Lorca was/is my favorite character of the show so far and I was hoping they would explore the idea that in order to maintain a 'utopia' like the UFP you will invariably need people who will have to break 'utopia' ideals and do the dirty work that few like to admit must be done at times. I was hoping that the present series could dispense with the notion that you can always come out ahead by follow high ideals in every situation - that despite your best efforts you have to compromise in order to survive and protect.

The fact that he's a Mirror double who's out for himself completely destroys that possibility and relegates his hardness and survival oriented personal philosophy to being the character traits of a Space-Fascis

 

[David cgc]

We didn't have a Roddenberry-esque Trek on TV for a very long time and the trope of having evil villains on tv being the main characters had gone too far in the past few years.

Here we go again, Star Trek taught you not to judge a book by it's cover but, oh, just because Lorca's from the "evil" universe, he must be a bad guy. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to prejudge a character just because of the quantum signature of his birth. Lorca could be a revolutionary, on the side of the rebels! He may have been won over by living in the Federation! Who knows what might happen in the next three episodes?

Captain Picard had a whole big speech on this, and I don't see how lying about being a secret Romulan is that different from lying about not being from a parallel universe.

 

[Tosk]

Lorca was/is my favorite character of the show so far and I was hoping they would explore the idea that in order to maintain a 'utopia' like the UFP you will invariably need people who will have to break 'utopia' ideals and do the dirty work that few like to admit must be done at times. I was hoping that the present series could dispense with the notion that you can always come out ahead by follow high ideals in every situation - that despite your best efforts you have to compromise in order to survive and protect.

Not that this helps, but it's not as though Trek hasn't already explored that before to some extent.

 

[yenny]

In the past I didn't think that Lorca was from the mirror universe. But now he is, high ranking officers in starfleet knew that he was from another universe. I think both Burans weren't distroyed by enemy fire. They were distroyed by a spore drive jump.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I have mixed to negative feelings about this Lorca revelation.

Lorca was/is my favorite character of the show so far and I was hoping they would explore the idea that in order to maintain a 'utopia' like the UFP you will invariably need people who will have to break 'utopia' ideals and do the dirty work that few like to admit must be done at times. I was hoping that the present series could dispense with the notion that you can always come out ahead by follow high ideals in every situation - that despite your best efforts you have to compromise in order to survive and protect.

It doesn't, necessarily. Remember, in another parallel universe, Starfleet woke Khan up from his hibernation to get his input on starship design and military tactics to get Starfleet ready for a war with the Klingons. There's nothing preventing them from utilizing Lorca's tactics for the good of the Federation. Hell, he practically won the war with the Klingons singlehandedly before jumping Discovery to the Mirror Universe.

 

[Donker]

The writer of the show himself on After Trek told us explictly that fans like myself were perfectly right and the Roddenberry vision was respected from the start because of this arc.

The writers only say this stuff to placate the fandom. Star Trek Discovery is not written for fans of Star Trek, it's a soft-reboot designed to appeal to the Netflix Marvel, Game of Thrones, Star Wars crowd.
Why would they try appeal to Trekkies when Trekkies have been a dwindling fanbase from the mid 90s onwards? It's not a good business decision at all. Suits look at shows like Daredevil and Game of Thrones and franchises like Star Wars and see them rake in crazy audiences, insane amounts of money and they look at what franchises they have and say "Copy that".

They do not care about Star Trek canon, they do not care about Gene Roddenberry's vision, at all. As people have said in this thread numerous times, it's a generic dark scifi action-drama show wearing Star Trek's carved off skin dancing around pretending it's Star Trek in some Grotesque Masqurade. Star Trek isn't the only franchise this has happened to, Star Wars is getting the exact same treatment, god we're getting a grimdark Lord of the Rings series inspired by Game of Thrones coming out next year as well.

If Discovery cared about Star Trek, the show would feel a lot more like DS9, but it doesn't, because money talks and money is not with the Star Trek fandom.

Another point is that Discovery was made to literally attach people to a terrible streaming service first and foremost. They want people who will watch Star Trek and then stick around and watch Young Sheldon or some crap, that ain't Trekkies.

 

[Galaxy]

Star Trek Discovery is not written for fans of Star Trek(...)If Discovery cared about Star Trek, the show would feel a lot more like DS9...

Many Star Trek fans rate DS9 as one of the worst shows ever...


Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, but I just hate it when people state things in absolutes. That seems like such a Mirror Universe way of thinking.

Personally there are many things I do not like about the Discovery, many things I do. In comparison to other Season 1s, I would say things are looking quite well.

 

[Donker]

Many Star Trek fans rate DS9 as one of the worst shows ever...

Sure, but they still can't ignore that DS9 had the spirit of Star Trek in ways Discovery just doesn't. DS9 still explored humanist and philosophical themes, it still had interplanetary exploration, it still in the end tried to paint a positive moral humanist vision despite arguably being too "dark" and against Genes more extreme aspects of his vision. (S31 would never fly under Gene)

But the thing is, none of that is in Discovery, Discovery has no Star Trek, it looks like Star Trek sure, it has Vulcans, it's called Star Trek, but there is no Star Trek, no exploration of philosophical or social themes, no interesting exploration of scifi concepts, no positive vision.

Personally there are many things I do not like about the Discovery, many things I do. In comparison to other Season 1s, I would say things are looking quite well.

Discovery is in that weird space for me where, it's a god awful Star Trek show, but it's an average/above average generic sci-fi show. It has way better production than any other Trek, the character drama is arguably better, but honestly, I would rather watch S1 TNG or S1 DS9 or S1 Voy than S1 Discovery again despite I know Disco is the better "quality" show.

 

[Succubint]

The writers only say this stuff to placate the fandom. Star Trek Discovery is not written for fans of Star Trek, it's a soft-reboot designed to appeal to the Netflix Marvel, Game of Thrones, Star Wars crowd.
Why would they try appeal to Trekkies when Trekkies have been a dwindling fanbase from the mid 90s onwards? It's not a good business decision at all. Suits look at shows like Daredevil and Game of Thrones and franchises like Star Wars and see them rake in crazy audiences, insane amounts of money and they look at what franchises they have and say "Copy that".

They do not care about Star Trek canon, they do not care about Gene Roddenberry's vision, at all. As people have said in this thread numerous times, it's a generic dark scifi action-drama show wearing Star Trek's carved off skin dancing around pretending it's Star Trek in some Grotesque Masqurade. Star Trek isn't the only franchise this has happened to, Star Wars is getting the exact same treatment, god we're getting a grimdark Lord of the Rings series inspired by Game of Thrones coming out next year as well.

If Discovery cared about Star Trek, the show would feel a lot more like DS9, but it doesn't, because money talks and money is not with the Star Trek fandom.

Another point is that Discovery was made to literally attach people to a terrible streaming service first and foremost. They want people who will watch Star Trek and then stick around and watch Young Sheldon or some crap, that ain't Trekkies.

Wow. This is a massively grimdark interpretation. Shallow and cynical as hell if you ask me. A perfect representation of what you say is so darned terrible about DSC.

To me it's obvious that those creating and working on this show care a lot about Star Trek. They are treating the canon with respect but at the same time trying to update it for a 2017 audience. Sometimes that means not catering to the fringe fanatics. They've most likely put more thought into canon, though, than previous incarnations because of how vitriolic fans are on social media these days. They're much more sensitive to criticism, because it's so prevalent these days - look at the Last Jedi temper tantrums - and yet they are still carving out their own show and doing it well.

If you don't like their choices, it's fair enough, it's your prerogative. Doesn't make your opinion fact, though. There's no indication that those working on the show aren't familiar with prior Trek, and respecting it in their own way.

By the way, Star Trek is and has ALWAYS been a business enterprise, trying to make the quickest buck and appeal to the largest audience. Gene Roddenberry was a hack who rode the wave of popular wave of acclaim (while Gene Coon who did the most work on the series was overlooked) and did some very questionable things to some of his female cast. He's just like Lucas, getting more credit than he probably deserved, in my opinion. Please stop putting him on a pedestal.

If you can't see how this show is delving far more deeply into what the ideals of the Federation actually were, how they eventually arrived at them, and how hard it is to live up to those ideals, then that's on you as a viewer. It's there, explicitly and implicitly if you cared to open your mind just a smidge.

Many Trek fans, like me, rate DS9 as the best Trek series they ever made. It had the best character development and long term arcs that actually had consequences. Even so, its first season was still a mixed bag with some clunkers. In my opinion Discovery is the closest thing to it. It has had a better S1 than any Star Trek show bar TOS. It asks itself harder, more complicated and nuanced moral questions which take resolving over longer periods of time than most of the previous offerings. That's why I love it. But hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Vger23]

Wow. This is a massively grimdark interpretation. Shallow and cynical as hell if you ask me. A perfect representation of what you say is so darned terrible about DSC.

To me it's obvious that those creating and working on this show care a lot about Star Trek. They are treating the canon with respect but at the same time trying to update it for a 2017 audience. Sometimes that means not catering to the fringe fanatics. They've most likely put more thought into canon, though, than previous incarnations because of how vitriolic fans are on social media these days. They're much more sensitive to criticism, because it's so prevalent these days - look at the Last Jedi temper tantrums - and yet they are still carving out their own show and doing it well.

If you don't like their choices, it's fair enough, it's your prerogative. Doesn't make your opinion fact, though. There's no indication that those working on the show aren't familiar with prior Trek, and respecting it in their own way.

By the way, Star Trek is and has ALWAYS been a business enterprise, trying to make the quickest buck and appeal to the largest audience. Gene Roddenberry was a hack who rode the wave of popular wave of acclaim (while Gene Coon who did the most work on the series was overlooked) and did some very questionable things to some of his female cast. He's just like Lucas, getting more credit than he probably deserved, in my opinion. Please stop putting him on a pedestal.

If you can't see how this show is delving far more deeply into what the ideals of the Federation actually were, how they eventually arrived at them, and how hard it is to live up to those ideals, then that's on you as a viewer. It's there, explicitly and implicitly if you cared to open your mind just a smidge.

Many Trek fans, like me, rate DS9 as the best Trek series they ever made. It had the best character development and long term arcs that actually had consequences. Even so, its first season was still a mixed bag with some clunkers. In my opinion Discovery is the closest thing to it. It has had a better S1 than any Star Trek show bar TOS. It asks itself harder, more complicated and nuanced moral questions which take resolving over longer periods of time than most of the previous offerings. That's why I love it. But hey, that's just my opinion.

Very good response agree with nearly everything here (except TOS still edges DS9 for best series...but DS9 is far-and-away the best of the Berman-era spinoffs).

Thanks for saving me from some typing.

 

[zenophite]

Not that this helps, but it's not as though Trek hasn't already explored that before to some extent.

It doesn't, necessarily. Remember, in another parallel universe, Starfleet woke Khan up from his hibernation to get his input on starship design and military tactics to get Starfleet ready for a war with the Klingons. There's nothing preventing them from utilizing Lorca's tactics for the good of the Federation. Hell, he practically won the war with the Klingons singlehandedly before jumping Discovery to the Mirror Universe.

Fair enough. I suppose that's partial the reason why I have mixed feelings - the hope they can salvage the character somehow and keep him from become a typical Mirror Universe caricature. I'll wait and see.

The other part of me takes these sorts of twists as a guilty pleasure...At least it can be fun if you're not taking it all too seriously.