Spoilers Lorca Theory

[BillJ]

This is my take. I'm annoyed that the Mirror Lorca theory looks more and more likely. I would really like it if this interesting nuanced character was actually just that.

With the performances Jason Isaacs has given, I'm okay either way.

 

[McDuff]

My whole appreciation for the character is that it demonstrates that Humans who go through that path don't need to be boy scouts and paragons of virtue (Picard, Janeway) who speechify and negotiate every problem away. They can still be flawed, normal Human Beings. As a card-carrying member myself, I resonate much more strongly with that than any ready-made squeaky-clean hero we could have been presented with.

Yes, but flawed humans and humanity is basically what we see in every single Hollywood production. Open the window that's what you see. Life in 2018. Our times. You watch a TV or movie drama, you watch flawed humans. There's nothing sci-fi or different about it. It's like turning Star Trek into Battestar Galactica. Sure it was a great series for many people, but it's not as unique or influential as Star Trek.

If Star Trek turn into Battestar Galactica it will be quickly forgotten in a sea of similar sci-fi dystopian future movies and series. It could become at most as popular and influential as Batman (which is greatly popular) but nothing more. Tapping into the lowest common denominators of TV/Movie viewers. Almost every sci-fi production are about a dystopian future (authoritarian regime, corporation taking over, cybernetic war, lack of freedom, etc) and every single dramas are about flawed humans in 2018. I'm a big fan of many of them (Total Recall, Blade Runner, etc) but I'm glad Star Trek is unique in its own way.

Star Trek doesn't present a dystopian future. It presents to us a future where humans have continued their progress. Maybe it's inspirational only (like looking at a mirror of ourselves in a better future and comparing us to them and see some of our flaws). Maybe it's a logical conclusion to the continuous progress of humanity. But at least it's a different viewpoint. Something that should be explored in a Sci-fi setting. The progress of science with things like replicators and eventually hollodecks had an effect on human societies and culture as a whole. It has eliminated the wars and battles for material resources, from water to luxury, and other petty political squabbles of our times. There's no poverty or war on earth anymore. No need for money either. Humans are much less materialistic. I think it's a strong sci-fi concept which resonated with many people.

Of course, you say Picard or Janeway were perfect, but it's clear they weren't. Some command decisions were wrong and their personal lives weren't perfect. They didn't order any genocide or killing of children. But there's other flaws in people than being immoral or do immoral acts when there's no choice. They have personal flaws. I also think Lorca is a great character. It's fine to have a character struggle with their actions. Starfleet captains and other characters struggle with their ideals and morality because there's indeed a lot of gray areas. Even more so in wars. Sometimes, you must drop a bomb on children. Collateral damage. They are used as human shields and the enemy is about to destroy you and kill all our children and people. In fact, it has a greater impact when it's somebody who's trying to do the right thing, a good person, that must decide to drop a bomb and produce collateral damage.

This is a simplified example (no backstory, etc) but the point is, you can take the sci-fi concept of a more progressive future. Of less materialistic humans. And still explore grays and dark areas. Of course, many Star Trek episodes have done just that and keep doing it.

 

[cbl1]

I personally don't want Lorca to be from MU. As Shawnster mentions I like the premise of the captain haunted by his past and fairly traumatized. Although if he is from MU that doesn't negate those aspects. As far as Utopian society - these guys are in Starfleet protecting those ideals .. that can take its toll with that kind of responsibility.

The idea of a flawed captain leaning on his crew to me makes Discovery different. Although I guess you could say Sisko had some of that baggage as well. I do believe Jason Isaacs portrays that broken side a little better then Avery Brooks did (not that I didn't like the Sisko/Brooks character). *actually I always wanted Avery Brooks Sisko to be a little more Hawk (Spencer for Hire) bad a**)

 

[Butters]

I predict the Mirror Lorca clues are all pieces of one massive red herring, and there’s many more subtle clues that have eluded us, all pointing at something major about to blindside us all.

Well I hope so anyway, I like to be surprised occasionally.

 

[cbl1]

We truly do not know where Mirror Lorca (if ours is not him); Mirror Burnham; Mirror Ash; are. The rest of the crew we can assume are on the Mirror Discovery in the normal universe. There is a lot of potential here for surprises.

 

[Hythlodeus]

We truly do not know where Mirror Lorca (if ours is not him); Mirror Burnham; Mirror Ash; are. The rest of the crew we can assume are on the Mirror Discovery in the normal universe. There is a lot of potential here for surprises.

we know where Mirror Ash is, he calles himself 'Firewolf' because he obviously is a 12 year old nerd who'addicted to MMOs

 

[BillJ]

we know where Mirror Ash is, he calles himself 'Firewolf' because he obviously is a 12 year old nerd who'addicted to MMOs

Spoiler: Ash Tyler

There was likely a real Ash Tyler who Voq is based on. Who is likely dead or a prisoner in the Discovery universe.

 

[cbl1]

Voq is Voq - he in the MU has nothing to do with Ash.

We do not know where Ash is. You wouldn't expect him to be on Discovery as the sequence of events that got him to discovery never happened here. He could be the Emperor's enforcer for all we know. Talk about kicking Burnham when she's down. First she goes to see the emperor (facing her dead captain) and then beside her she sees her lover (who just tried to kill her).

 

[cbl1]

Real Ash in discovery universe had his skin removed from his body and his brain squished into a Klingon body. I assume they tossed out the rest of the scraps. Pretty gory - we haven't seen the worst of it in the on-screen flashbacks. Prime Universe Real Ash had a pretty gruesome death.

 

[Vger23]

Yes, but flawed humans and humanity is basically what we see in every single Hollywood production. Open the window that's what you see. Life in 2018. Our times. You watch a TV or movie drama, you watch flawed humans. There's nothing sci-fi or different about it. It's like turning Star Trek into Battestar Galactica. Sure it was a great series for many people, but it's not as unique or influential as Star Trek.

If Star Trek turn into Battestar Galactica it will be quickly forgotten in a sea of similar sci-fi dystopian future movies and series. It could become at most as popular and influential as Batman (which is greatly popular) but nothing more. Tapping into the lowest common denominators of TV/Movie viewers. Almost every sci-fi production are about a dystopian future (authoritarian regime, corporation taking over, cybernetic war, lack of freedom, etc) and every single dramas are about flawed humans in 2018. I'm a big fan of many of them (Total Recall, Blade Runner, etc) but I'm glad Star Trek is unique in its own way.

Star Trek doesn't present a dystopian future. It presents to us a future where humans have continued their progress. Maybe it's inspirational only (like looking at a mirror of ourselves in a better future and comparing us to them and see some of our flaws). Maybe it's a logical conclusion to the continuous progress of humanity. But at least it's a different viewpoint. Something that should be explored in a Sci-fi setting. The progress of science with things like replicators and eventually hollodecks had an effect on human societies and culture as a whole. It has eliminated the wars and battles for material resources, from water to luxury, and other petty political squabbles of our times. There's no poverty or war on earth anymore. No need for money either. Humans are much less materialistic. I think it's a strong sci-fi concept which resonated with many people.

Of course, you say Picard or Janeway were perfect, but it's clear they weren't. Some command decisions were wrong and their personal lives weren't perfect. They didn't order any genocide or killing of children. But there's other flaws in people than being immoral or do immoral acts when there's no choice. They have personal flaws. I also think Lorca is a great character. It's fine to have a character struggle with their actions. Starfleet captains and other characters struggle with their ideals and morality because there's indeed a lot of gray areas. Even more so in wars. Sometimes, you must drop a bomb on children. Collateral damage. They are used as human shields and the enemy is about to destroy you and kill all our children and people. In fact, it has a greater impact when it's somebody who's trying to do the right thing, a good person, that must decide to drop a bomb and produce collateral damage.

This is a simplified example (no backstory, etc) but the point is, you can take the sci-fi concept of a more progressive future. Of less materialistic humans. And still explore grays and dark areas. Of course, many Star Trek episodes have done just that and keep doing it.

The problem that i have with this kind of argument is that too many Star Trek fans are binary on the subject.

Flawed main characters don't automatically equate to dystopia.

Picard and Janeway were virtually flawless compared to real human beings, even gifted, intelligent, seasoned human beings.

You say there's nothing unique about portraying flawed humans in entertainment these days. I agree, but I also counter by saying there's nothing interesting or dramatic about portraying people like Picard or Janeway. Tuning in every week knowing that Picard is going to follow his personal code, uphold unshakable principles, and always do the "right thing" isn't interesting. It's a foregone conclusion. There's nothing to root for. There's no growth or mystery or even surprise...becuase Picard or Janeway already started out as perfect. So there's nowhere for them to go. Sure, I guess it's fun for a little while to think about what great role models for humanity they represent (and they are...!), but I don't get anything else out of that. I've come to a point where I want and need to root for my characters to become better people as they discover themselves and the world around them. Because that's real life (like Picard says..."to make yourself a better man"). Star Trek always preached that "we strive to better ourselves" but rarely SHOWED it. Everyone was already a frigging saint or "the best of the best."

Also- Star Trek has done virtue to death. Like, literally, to death. I think we get it at this point. It was time to show character JOURNEYS as they move away from their flaws and start to discover what the ideals and philosophy of the Federation REALLY means through trial by fire.

This is my whole argument...making Lorca a MU double or a "villain" as so many people seem dead-set on believing, is a complete trashing of the opportunity to show Lorca's growth toward a more healed, enlightened leader as time moves on. Lorca's development could be an analogy for humanity's development.

That's interesting drama. That's something I can be invested in a root for.


Everything else just feels...I don't know...kind of childish and stale.

It's all personal taste. But, personally, I think Star Trek Discovery is a much stronger show as a result. I loved (LOVED) Captain Georgeau...but I recognize that she wouldn't have been a fun weekly captain to watch, because she was just another perfect Picard or Janeway. We've seen that before. The producers were dead-on in knowing the series needed to do something different.

 

[Hythlodeus]

making Lorca a MU double [...] is a complete trashing of the opportunity to show Lorca's growth toward a more healed, enlightened leader as time moves on.

I'm not so sure about that. Again, it's all in the execution and how it plays out but ATM it looks like Lorca still actively tries to be the 'better version of himself' he 'hoped to find' in the MU. We know, that MU Lorca was a captain of a starship of the Empire, meaning he probably has done morally questionable things by our standards, but something must have happened that challenged his point of view. He tried to assassinate the Emperor, somehow got into the PU afterwards and adapted pretty quickly to the rules and morals there. Not flawlessly, but he tried his best. There certainly is growth in there, if the writers want it that way, developing a new moral compass, getting 'better' and even though his attitude is still basically 'the end justifies the means' he softened relatively much compared to other MU versions we have seen so far.
Again, it depends on the writers intention and the execution, but there are, if they go that route, a lot of possibilities for growth and development into the UFP ideal somewhere in his future. And that's a very optimistic thing, that even someone like a MU captain can better himself, change and grow closer to the Picards and Janeways we are used to.

 

[Mudd]

Yes, but flawed humans and humanity is basically what we see in every single Hollywood production.

This is kind of a nonsensically complicated way of saying "Human beings are basically what we see in every Hollywood production."

 

[Vger23]

I'm not so sure about that. Again, it's all in the execution and how it plays out but ATM it looks like Lorca still actively tries to be the 'better version of himself' he 'hoped to find' in the MU. We know, that MU Lorca was a captain of a starship of the Empire, meaning he probably has done morally questionable things by our standards, but something must have happened that challenged his point of view. He tried to assassinate the Emperor, somehow got into the PU afterwards and adapted pretty quickly to the rules and morals there. Not flawlessly, but he tried his best. There certainly is growth in there, if the writers want it that way, developing a new moral compass, getting 'better' and even though his attitude is still basically 'the end justifies the means' he softened relatively much compared to other MU versions we have seen so far.
Again, it depends on the writers intention and the execution, but there are, if they go that route, a lot of possibilities for growth and development into the UFP ideal somewhere in his future. And that's a very optimistic thing, that even someone like a MU captain can better himself, change and grow closer to the Picards and Janeways we are used to.

Agree completely that execution is everything...and so far they've done a very good job of that. So, despite my disappointment, I'd still be hopeful and give approval (haha) so long as it plays well.

I'm not one of those fans that gets all rip$hit if things don't play out the way I want or expect (TLJ anyone)...so long as the execution is great.

 

[Cyrus]

I never liked the mirror Lorca theory, hope it turns out to be false.

I liked the original Lorca theory, that he will turn out to be Garth of Izar, better.

 

[McDuff]

Picard and Janeway were virtually flawless compared to real human beings, even gifted, intelligent, seasoned human beings.

I don't view Picard and Janeway as flawless. They made some wrong command decisions and had troubled in their personal life. No doubt they were top of the line, flagship worthy captain in an advanced human society of the future. It's a bit normal for people at their position to be more like Mad Dog Mattis than Starbuck in BSG. They are people who went through all the psychological test and are armed with experience and are proven in the field. They are not supposed to buckle under stress, go bonkers or be psychologically unstable because x or y happenned in the previous episodes. We need our leaders to be solid people. Not emotional teenagers.

Picard and Janeway were seasoned veterans. Top of the line flagship captains. In the show they had a certain position of grandfather/grandmother armed with experience and wisdom. Other characters in TNG and Voyager were clearly not as worthy leaders as Picard and Janeway. A lot of them had problems with their tempers, unresolved past issues, lack of experience, identity crisis, loyalty issues, even things akin to mid life crisis, love life issues, problems with their children/family, etc. I don't remember all the storylines but they were many of them. Considering it's a sci-fi action-adventure with suspense, mystery, drama and humor, I think previous Star Trek series touched a lot of sensitive and true issues related to flaws in human emotions, personality and characters. But it's true Picard and Janeway had some kind of seasoned veterans, father/mother, grandfather/grandmohter roles. People with experience and wisdom watching over their less experienced crew. Some kind of role models for the crew and I guess us the viewers. It made sense to me because I viewed them as top of the line Starship captains.

 

[Mudd]

I haven't used a character from a TV show as a role model since I was thirteen.

 

[McDuff]

I haven't used a character from a TV show as a role model since I was thirteen.

I never used a character from a TV show as a role model ever. :P

edit: To be fair, it's hard to find role models among The Transformers. For my favorite characters, I was like. I want to be like this chactacter. It would be so cool to be able to turn into a plane.

 

[Aaron McGuire]

I think that the idea that the Lorca we have been seeing being from the Mirror Universe is silly. Like Vger23 has said, it's better if he's just a flawed, normal human. Kirk and company weren't the fully evolved, perfect humans that Picard and Janeway were. Why would Kirk's contemporary be that evolved?

Also, he keeps a phaser under his pillow due to PTSD not because he comes from an alternate universe. PTSD has been a major component of the series.

I liked the original Lorca theory, that he will turn out to be Garth of Izar, better.

I've seen this before and it makes no damn sense to me. How would this even work?

 

[McDuff]

I also prefer if it is a real Lorca affected by war and PTSD (and now torture). I like the discussion in this thread about the alternate universe Lorca theory. There's some interesting clues to ponder.

 

[cbl1]

I would prefer that Lorca keeps the phaser under his pillow because of PTSD. But you have to admit that every MU Starfleet captain probably has to keep one under their pillow!