Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Come to think of it, the dilemma about Tyler and Voq reminds me a bit of Babylon 5's Passing through Gethsemane

The difference is, when Brother Edward realized that he was in fact Charles Dexter and remembered his former life, he expressed remorse for his crimes, and was in fact prepared to die for them.

Voq, on the other hand, openly and proudly admitted what he'd done and didn't appear to have a trace of regret. Remember what he said to Burnham after their fight - "I remain Voq. Son of none. The torchbearer."

 

[XCV330]

He knows Trek, he can write, he understands how to build flawed, compelling characters, and he is a successful showrunner. What more could you ask for?

No matter what the show, it seems a normal thing for someone at the top of the creative process to eventually run their course. A long running show has to eventually ditch that person or run into the ground. I don't think he should come back. If I want 90's trek, there's plenty of reruns. Season one of Disco picked up steam as soon as the Bryan Fuller episodes were gone.

 

[Vger23]

I know that I have said this more than a few times...but I think it bears some repeating (especially since the naysayers are back with a vengeance this week).

We really need to have some perspective on where this show is at and where it has come from in this stage of its lifecycle. It is 12 episodes into it's run. It was only given 15 episodes to tell an arc-driven story...which means not a ton of time to develop characters and sip tea. Then, there was a lot of turmoil on the production side of this show...particularly with the original creator / vision-setter and show runner leaving and others having to take over and execute that vision.

Taking TOS out of the equation, think about all the other Trek series and where they were at after 12 episodes. Hell, TNG, which seems to be the overwhelming popular favorite, was a very inconsistent mess. Even as a 12-year old young lad, TNG was boring and trite too often in the first half of that first season. It was drudgery. DS9, the "refined fan's favorite" hit the ball out of the frigging park with "The Emissary" and then was drudgery for nearly 2 full years. I didn't get back into it until "Way of the Warrior." VOY and ENT were equally bad early on in their runs. Heck, ENT took 2 full seasons to have anything even remotely resembling a good run of episodes.

I think we need to be patient. History tells us that things will only get better. This has been a pretty good season all things considered and especially given the history of the franchise and how long it typically takes these shows to get their legs and start being comfortable in their own skin.

Look at TNG's first 12 as an example:

1. Farpoint (mediocre...carried more on nostalgia than what it delivered) 6/10
2. Naked Now (derivative, not good) 4/10
3. Code of Honor (abysmal) 1/10
4. Last Outpost (ok, but became a silly joke by the end) 5/10
5. Where No One Has Gone... (very good) 8/10
6. Lonely Among Us (not good) 2/10
7. Justice (abysmal) 1/10
8. The Battle (ok, but a little silly and sloppy) 5/10
9. Hide & Q (ok, but pretty silly) 5/10
10. Haven (abysmal) 2/10
11. Big Goodbye (fairly good) 7/10
12. Datalore (abysmal) 1/10

TNG was even less consistent in the second half of the season:

13. Angel One (abysmal) 2/10
14. 11001001 (excellent) 10/10
15. Too Short a Season (not good) 3/10
16. When the Bough Breaks (not good...some interesting stuff, but overwhelmed by nonsense) 3/10
17. Home Soil (ok, but pretty silly) 4/10
18. Coming of Age (fairly good) 6/10
19. Heart of Glory (very good, one of TNG's best Klingon episodes) 8/10
20. Arsenal of Freedom (fairly good, fun...original "lower decks" episode) 7/10
21. Symbiosis (not good, embarrassing) 2/10
22. Skin of Evil (ok, but pretty silly) 5/10
23. We'll Always Have Paris (fairly good) 7/10
24. Conspiracy (excellent) 10/10
25. Neutral Zone (not good) 2/10

When you look at how I'd rate DSC in their first 12 vs what I gave TNG, DSC is far-and-away off to a better start. I've also included the "Jammer's Review" (www.jammerreviews.com) score just to add some opinion of someone other than myself:

1. Vulcan Hello 8/10 (vs. TNG 6/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
2. Binary Stars 6/10 (vs. TNG 4/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
3. Context 8/10 (vs. TNG 1/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 0.5/5)
4. Butcher 7/10 (vs. TNG 5/10) (Jammer: 2.5/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
5. Chose Pain 7/10 (vs TNG 8/10) (Jammer: 2.5/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
6. Lethe 9/10 (vs. TNG 2/10) (Jammer: 2.5/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
7. Magic 8/10 (vs. TNG 1/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 1/5)
8. Si Vis Pacem 6/10 (vs. TNG 5/10) (Jammer 2/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
9. Into the Forrest 9/10 (vs. TNG 5/10) (Jammer: 3.5/5 vs. TNG 3/5)
10. Despite Yourself 10/10 (vs. TNG 2/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
11. The Wolf Inside 9/10 (vs. TNG 7/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
12. Ambition 7/10 (vs. TNG 1/10) (Jammer: n/a vs. TNG 3/5)

I don't think there's any doubt that DSC is off to a better start than TNG was. And TNG became classic and great.

Patience...By the end of the second season, DSC will have roughly as many episodes (and therefore growth opportunities) as TNG did for the it's first season roughly. Even those who are frustrated right now should be a little more forgiving given the rocky production facts DSC navigated and history of the overall franchise. Again, history tells us it will only continue to get better.

 

[Ometiklan]

I don't recognize that distinction.

The real Tyler is dead and I'm sure everyone knows it by now. No matter whose face the impostor now wears, or what he chooses to call himself, Voq is Voq and should be treated accordingly. Especially now that he KNOWS he's Voq and has admitted everything (proudly, if the fight scene with Burnham in "Despite Yourself" is any indication)...

Most of what you said isn't true. Tyler and Voq are two separate personalities, each in control of the body at different times. Voq is unleashed by mentions of Kahless and other triggers. Other times, Tyler runs the show. Tyler didn't know where he was when he was doing actions as Voq. He responded confusedly to Lorca and said there was no excuse for his tardiness. He didn't remember killing Culber until after his personality broke seeing the MU Voq. etc.

Much like in "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" when Burnham was going to excuse Saru's actions as being under the influence of Pahvo, and Saru shot her down saying that he was himself and those were his actions. Voq killed Culber, and the Tyler personality didn't have anything to do with it. If (as it seems apparent based on L'Rells "death yell" after the medical procedure on Tyler/Voq) the Voq personality is gone/dead, Tyler should be held blameless.

 

[Vger23]

No matter what the show, it seems a normal thing for someone at the top of the creative process to eventually run their course. A long running show has to eventually ditch that person or run into the ground. I don't think he should come back. If I want 90's trek, there's plenty of reruns. Season one of Disco picked up steam as soon as the Bryan Fuller episodes were gone.

Agreed

I have no desire to see Moore return to Star Trek. Good guy...he's made some good TV...but you can't go home again.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If (as it seems apparent based on L'Rells "death yell" after the medical procedure on Tyler/Voq) the Voq personality is gone/dead

But how can they possibly ensure that? For all anyone knows, Tyler still remembers he's Voq and is prepared to "game the system" so he can fool everyone into believing he's "cured". He IS a spy, after all.

And L'Rell was Voq's handler, after all. If what you say about the "death howl" is true (I haven't actually seen the episode yet), then who's to say the howl wasn't fake and she isn't still active in perpetuating the deception?

How can they prove, with 100% certainty, that Voq is no longer Voq?

 

[Succubint]

The difference is, when Brother Edward realized that he was in fact Charles Dexter and remembered his former life, he expressed remorse for his crimes, and was in fact prepared to die for them.

Voq, on the other hand, openly and proudly admitted what he'd done and didn't appear to have a trace of regret. Remember what he said to Burnham after their fight - "I remain Voq. Son of none. The torchbearer."

That's because Voq was the original personality, the Charles Dexter of the story. When he reasserted himself over Tyler, taking over completely, he owned up to his intent and actions which were to sabotage the Discovery in service of his Klingon ideology.

Brother Edward expresses remorse because he's still Brother Edward. He sees his past sadistic crimes through the lens of his new kind and compassionate personality and thus is tormented by a huge crisis of faith and identity.

Can't you see the obvious difference between the two scenarios?

Let's wait and see how the newly recovered Tyler personality reacts to what his Voq persona did before we assume his state of mind or culpability.

Heck, Tyler could well be a Brother Edward type character moving forward. Should he be punished harshly for crimes he may have had no control over? Remember the black outs? Eventually he does remember what he did, but again, it was Voq who made those choices.

 

[O_Kav]

This show needs to cut down on the fucking gore. This shit is not 'edgy' and doesn't make the series more 'mature'. This shit is just obnoxious. Like someone swearing all the fucking time.

You're right, gore isn't edgy. It's 2018. Gore is the standard for Television Series. Most people don't feel shocked seeing fake blood, innards made of CGI and plastic cadavers anymore. Nothing is more "vanilla" than CSI and they had gore all the time, for example. I'm really not seeing any problems here. It's a good thing Discovery is playing safe and isn't trying to be "edgy"

Besides, what can really be done about it ? If they have a scene where blades cut through people's heads, what they could have showed us instead ? That the victims just had some bruises or some small entry wounds ? That would make no sense at all.

The Charon(sp?) is probably the most ridiculous looking starship we had on Star Trek in, like, ever

The Terrans are basically Nazis. And Nazis had a thing for ridiculous looking man-made objects. Look at Speer's plans for Volkshalle. It would be one of the most ugly things that Humans ever built and apparently Hitler was very fond of it.

Mirror Universe humans being overly sensitive to light is both ridiculous and clashes hard with canon - we already had multiple MU episodes thrughout Trek, where that never was an issue for MU characters

We never had scenes where MU Human characters look directly at strong light sources while they are on our Universe or sequences where they look at any unusual light sources from their Universe, like the Charon's Core or whatever that thing is. Also, maybe they have found a cure for light sensitivity in the future. There's no Canon contradiction here.

I had hoped Mirror Lorca would be a litte bit more three dimensional character - like, say, a human resistance fighter, fighting against an oppressive regime, with a "ends-justify-the-means"-attitude toward the prime universe. Instead of the clichéd "promotion by killing the superiour"-motive for MU characters

So, if Lorca is evil he can't be three dimensional ? Only characters that have good intentions are allowed to be complex ? No. Just no.

Besides, we still don't know Lorca's endgame, since the Mirror Universe Arc isn't over. We can't be sure he's just doing this in order to be promoted. Maybe that's it or maybe it isn't, we just need to be patient and see the story's conclusion.

The depiction of the Mirror Universe is as cheesy, over-the-top ridiculous as it has ever been before, probably even more so. I can't believe the show takes itself THAT serious while servicing such utter ham

Since when Fascists are not "cheesy" and "over-the-top" ? They march on the streets wearing very silly uniforms, they have obscure esoteric symbols, weird social rituals they want to force down on people, they believe in some mystic bull crap about the Aryan Race and still are proud believers of pseudosciences like Racial Biology...

I mean, have you never looked at White Nationalist clowns like Richard Spencer or Augustus Invictus ? Fascists are weirdos. You can't blame DSC writers for that. The Mirror Universe is a very realistic portrayal of the perfect world far-righters want for themselves.

 

[dahj]

How can they prove, with 100% certainty, that Voq is no longer Voq?

They tell him T'Kuvma was a poopie head and see his reaction?

 

[SJGardner]

The difference is, when Brother Edward realized that he was in fact Charles Dexter and remembered his former life, he expressed remorse for his crimes, and was in fact prepared to die for them.

Voq, on the other hand, openly and proudly admitted what he'd done and didn't appear to have a trace of regret. Remember what he said to Burnham after their fight - "I remain Voq. Son of none. The torchbearer."

I don't see it being that different. Voq was proud of his deeds as Voq, while Brother Edward was prepared to die as Brother Edward, knowing who he was. If what we saw tonight was L'Rell basically exorcising Voq out of his own body and the Tyler personality reasserted itself thereafter, I suspect he would feel the same remorse for killing Culber, especially with him knowing he's not the real Tyler. He would remember his acts as Voq but he'd feel guilt for them as Tyler. That being said, I think it would be a very cheap move from the series if they just had Tyler back on the bridge in the next episode like nothing happened à la Berman-era Trek. I truly hope his emotional and moral conflicts over basically being a trespasser in Voq's body, not to mention being a mere copy of the man he remembers being would be explored as we go on.

 

[Longinus]

We really need to have some perspective on where this show is at and where it has come from in this stage of its lifecycle. It is 12 episodes into it's run. It was only given 15 episodes to tell an arc-driven story...which means not a ton of time to develop characters and sip tea.

Then perhaps they should not have tried to shove a Klingon war arc and mirror universe arc and two of the main characters being different sorts of impostors* in those 15 episodes? Just focus on one thing, and tell that well.

* It is hard to fathom that they really did this. Frankly, it is comical in it's absurdity. And the 'reveals' are in two consecutive episodes even.

 

[SJGardner]

They tell him T'Kuvma was a poopie head and see his reaction?

Or you could just yell 'qeylIs' at him multiple times and see if he snaps.

 

[Spot261]

They tell him T'Kuvma was a poopie head and see his reaction?

Kapla with that

 

[Longinus]

Oh, by the way, to me it seems pretty damn unethical to erase the Voq personality, even though he obviously was a murderous scum. He was the original personality and they basically just killed him, or at least lobotomised him, without his consent or a court order. (Not that any proper court would ever allow that.)

 

[137th Gebirg]

Kapla with that

That's Qapla', you petaQ!

 

[Jadeb]

Then perhaps they should not have tried to shove a Klingon war arc and mirror universe arc and two of the main characters being different sorts of impostors* in those 15 episodes? Just focus on one thing, and tell that well.

* It is hard to fathom that they really did this. Frankly, it is comical in it's absurdity. And the 'reveals' are in two consecutive episodes even.

Watching the after-show last night, I got the impression the writers are really hung up on the duality conceit. They've laid it on thick. They may be too focused on thematic concerns for the show's greater good.

 

[dahj]

Then perhaps they should not have tried to shove a Klingon war arc and mirror universe arc and two of the main characters being different sorts of impostors* in those 15 episodes? Just focus on one thing, and tell that well.

In the olden days of Star Trek this would have been 3 episodes.

You'd have one episode in which the Klingon War would start and then end due to magics of Spore Drive, you'd have one mirror universe episode where they meet the wacky Empress, and one episode where the Captain and Security Chief are replaced by impostors.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

Most of what you said isn't true. Tyler and Voq are two separate personalities, each in control of the body at different times. Voq is unleashed by mentions of Kahless and other triggers. Other times, Tyler runs the show. Tyler didn't know where he was when he was doing actions as Voq. He responded confusedly to Lorca and said there was no excuse for his tardiness. He didn't remember killing Culber until after his personality broke seeing the MU Voq. etc.

Much like in "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" when Burnham was going to excuse Saru's actions as being under the influence of Pahvo, and Saru shot her down saying that he was himself and those were his actions. Voq killed Culber, and the Tyler personality didn't have anything to do with it. If (as it seems apparent based on L'Rells "death yell" after the medical procedure on Tyler/Voq) the Voq personality is gone/dead, Tyler should be held blameless.

Yes, buuuuuut...

I wouldn't say "blameless." I'd say "not culpable." I'm not sure they'll ever be able to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt what was Voq and what was Tyler. I hypothesize that Tyler's digitised personality could not have been entirely uninfluenced by Voq. Voq sort of filled in the spaces between Tyler (or Tyler filled in the spaces of Voq). So there's a bit of a confound here that I'm not sure Federation science will ever be able to fully suss out. But, I think it's safe to say, that whatever is left of Tyler is not culpable for the actions taken whilst Voq was, more or less, in charge. Similar to cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder. But, as in the case of DID, since assurance is an issue, there's usually consequences, though they may not be as severe. When someone has DID and one of their alters commits a crime, there's usually time spent in mandatory therapy at a State psychiatric facility. Involuntary incarceration, in other words.

Now, perhaps Federation science has advanced to the point where they can suss out the difference between personalities, but I suspect not. I point to Culber's clearly hypothetical scenario (which turned out to be correct) that he wasn't entirely sure of (until Tyler/Voq broke his neck, of course). If he wasn't certain whether or not what he was suspecting was possible, that would seem to indicate that Federation science is not advanced enough to suss out the differences a procedure like that would muddy.

But, this might be neither here nor there. If the writers want to keep Tyler around, fine. I like the character. I'm just trying to be realistic about the kind of Treknobabble explanation they would inevitably have to come up with to keep him on...

 

[SJGardner]

In the olden days of Star Trek this would have been 3 episodes.

You'd have one episode in which the Klingon War would start and then end due to magics of Spore Drive, you'd have one mirror universe episode where they meet the wacky Empress, and one episode where the Captain and Security Chief are replaced by impostors.

And each episode would end with the crew making an idiom-laden comment which Burnham, due to her Vulcan upbringing, would not understand and/or take literally and they would share a laugh at her expense. Maybe one of them could also end with Saru making a dry observation on unfathomable human behavior for variety.

 

[Refuge]

A few things regarding the episode itself:

• This show needs to cut down on the fucking gore. This shit is not 'edgy' and doesn't make the series more 'mature'. This shit is just obnoxious. Like someone swearing all the fucking time.
  
• The Charon(sp?) is probably the most ridiculous looking starship we had on Star Trek in, like, ever
• Mirror Universe humans being overly sensitive to light is both ridiculous and clashes hard with canon - we already had multiple MU episodes thrughout Trek, where that never was an issue for MU characters
• I had hoped Mirror Lorca would be a litte bit more three dimensional character - like, say, a human resistance fighter, fighting against an oppressive regime, with a "ends-justify-the-means"-attitude toward the prime universe. Instead of the clichéd "promotion by killing the superiour"-motive for MU characters
  
• The depiction of the Mirror Universe is as cheesy, over-the-top ridiculous as it has ever been before, probably even more so. I can't believe the show takes itself THAT serious while servicing such utter ham

Is that what that taste is in my mouth? Cheese and ham? Little bit of vomit in there too. Least it's not Kelpien.

I'm not rating this episode. It could've been a turning point where the direction of Discovery was going to be what was promised. Emphasis on story telling and the complexities of 'human' (or alien) drama. Flawed characters you could embrace or my case at least see enough substance to critique. That substance doesn't exist anymore. These characters are not even consistent in depiction. It's a 'try hard' pantomime.