Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

[Feron]

let's see, high caliber movie actor from a beloved fantasy franchise gets cast as one of the leads of an ensemble genre show only to kill him off at the end of the first season... they might be apples and oranges, but I tell you, both are round fruits

A key difference is that GoT has revenge fantasy as a huge part of its' plotline.

Ned Stark is killed, and story arcs are created for his offspring to seek revenge. People keep watching GoT so that they can see hated enemies that killed characters they love also get killed.

If Lorca is removed from the show, they are just taking out a popular character and leaving us with less enjoyable options. There will be no "revenge fantasy" reason to keep us watching.

 

[eschaton]

- Burnham doesn't understand emotions or humanity, oh she's a lovebird now and has no problem with humanity or emotions (Burnham arc was done far, FAR better with 7of9)
- Everyone hates Burnham and is terrified of her, nope dropped after 2 episodes.
- Tilly is Autis..Nope not anymore.
- Focusing on Burnham and Tilly as basically cadets, nope, they're bridge crew now.
- Klingons all speak Klingo... No they're speaking english
- Flesh out the Klingon race and different houses, see them for like 2 episodes for like a combined 1 minutes of screen time.
- Voq sent to the Matriarchs, to learn how to infiltrate human societ... nope, just was on L'Rells ship and was transformed by L'Rell.
- Klingon War all together, nope dropped for Mirror Universe.

They also dropped Stamets being a jerkass.

It's a shame this series wasn't done in time for the 50-year mission book. Maybe they'll write a 75-year mission book eventually so we get the inside scoop.

Just a thought since the concepts of freedom, independence, equal rights etc are anathema to human culture then it means the Romans defeated the Christians, the USA never won independence from the English, the British Empire never set, the Ottoman empire never disintegrated, Hitler won the war, the Bolsheviks never defeated the Czar since Marxism never caught on (so no USSR, no cold war).
Gosh Earth must be a hellhole!

And yet somehow, with a POD thousands of years in the past, everyone who would have been alive in OTL is still alive in the Mirrorverse.

 

[Donker]

then it means the Romans defeated the Christians

The idea behind the Mirror Universe form Star Trek writers themselves was literally "What if the Roman Empire survived, conquered the world and went into space".
Considering how much Roddenberry was obsessed with Greece and Rome, not hard to see this being the case.
This episode also 100% confirmed imo that the Mirror Universe is Rome, with the Emperor having a Roman Imperial name and the Palace ship having a Roman god name.

 

[omnirad]

Last week on After Trek producer Ted Sullivan said the REAL big twists will leave fans saying "I didn't see that coming!". The Tyler/Voq and Lorca 'reveals' were easy to see coming. I have a feeling that the producers promise to bring Discovery more in line with established canon will leave us all with our jaws on the floor, some how.

I give the odds that the entire season one cast will survive into season two at 50/50.

 

[Nyotarules]

The idea behind the Mirror Universe form Star Trek writers themselves was literally "What if the Roman Empire survived, conquered the world and went into space".
Considering how much Roddenberry was obsessed with Greece and Rome, not hard to see this being the case.
This episode also 100% confirmed imo that the Mirror Universe is Rome, with the Emperor having a Roman Imperial name and the Palace ship having a Roman god name.

yeah in that case there was never a British empire, and Hitler never had a chance to come to power since Italy ruled the world for aloooooong time

 

[Crazy Eddie]

yeah in that case there was never a British empire, and Hitler never had a chance to come to power since Italy ruled the world for aloooooong time

You mean that german art student with that ridiculous mustache who started a whole rebellion with the aim of creating a free and democratic homeland for the Jews? Poor dumb bastard. The Empire wiped him out and six million of his followers for good measure. There's a lesson in there somewhere, but I doubt future generations will learn it...

 

[cbl1]

I think with the Lorca being from mirror universe fans figuring out. For fans to have figured out they actually had to be thinking mirror universe. If it hadn't been spoiled that we were getting mirror universe this season then people wouldn't have used mirror universe all along to explain certain things.

I guess my point it - they actually fueled the speculation on Lorca by having spoiled the fact that mirror universe was even going to be in this series. They weren't hiding any of this. I still don't think it spoils the ultimate reveal as they purposely made it into a "is he" or "isn't he" moment.

Same goes for Ash - they wanted people to see hints that this was going to go bad. It made it more believable when actually then seen happen on screen.

 

[MacLeod]

That’s not an excuse. The show trades on the Trek name. It can’t just dump the majority of what Trek is and still hold the mantel.

I just don’t think the show runners and writers are that smart. Take the Stamets and Culber scenes this episode. They felt so forced. I really felt they took away from the beauty of having a gay couple on the ship. I want gay characters to feel as “normal” as anyone else. Matter of fact even. But it felt like the great character of Culber (the only one by the way to ever truly espouse Trek values) was bumped off just so he could have this episode’s “hey, I’m gay and I love you” scene. Felt patronising.

I just feel that when Trek is at its best it’s a bit smarter.

The scene could have worked just as easily with a hetrosexual couple, where one of them works too much and neglets their partner a little.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Well, how realistic would it be for there to be two Lorca’s commanding one ship? Someone would have smelled a rat, no?

I'm assuming MU Lorca killed PU Lorca when he scuttled the ship

 

[cbl1]

I'm hoping we get the PU Lorca or we find that MU Lorca had a good reason for what he did and allowed to continue on as captain.

Can they bring the emperor back to PU and pretend she is Captain Georgiou to exonerate Burnham.

 

[Long Syntax]

The best way of putting it is the series is entertaining me as generic sci-fi but letting me down as Trek.

This closely sums it up for me. It's somewhat entertaining Sci-Fi, but in many ways seems Trek in name only. I continue to pay for the series, I pay my nickle - I watch, but can't shake the empty feeling at the end of the episodes - and I gave this one an 8 weighed only against the rest of the series, not the whole body of ST. I've been a fan since TOS, all the way through to the present. Each series has held a special place inside me and the love for the show has consistently been rooted in character development / relationships. I cared about those series characters. With every passing episode the reality that I most likely won't ever care for the characters in DSC disappoints me.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Joining Spock, Data, and the Doctor, IIRC.

Not to mention the mutinies attempted when Kirk/Picard were possessed but they had no evidence. Heck, almost every bridge officer on the show disobeys the captain, and every captain an admiral.

 

[Cox of Seagulls]

Michelle Yeoh is awful

This is as close to objectively wrong as an opinion can be.

 

[Mr Awe]

Then where’s the real one.

Guessing that MU Lorca working with MU Stammets came to the PU--maybe looking for some advanced tech. MU Lorca probably blew up the Buran with PU Lorca onboard.

 

[cbl1]

MU Stammets didn't seem overly evil. And we don't really know if MU Lorca is really evil or just trying to save his supporters. So far the emperor hasn't exactly appeared to be the kindest person. MU Lorca may be very justified in what he has done. And PU Lorca we haven't a clue - we may get scene of him trying to save PU Lorca and failing but promising PU Lorca to continue on in his place. There are a lot of ways Lorca can be redeemed.

Lorca looked kinda evil at end of episode - but we just watched the guy kill a friend of his in a painful execution (over being mad Lorca slept with his sister).

 

[Sakonna]

I actively hated this episode, in a way I haven't with any of the previous installments. Though not because of the MU Lorca twist which everyone else seems to be up in arms about -- that didn't bother me (yet, we'll see where they go with it).

The big problem: I've said from the beginning the only thing that could make me give up on this show is if they did some awful "kill your gays" thing with Stamets/Culber. After that neck-snapping a few weeks back, I saw all those interviews that Culber would be back, those quotes from the showrunner about how he's openly gay and they are NOT doing the "kill your gays" trope, and the audience should just be patient. I thought to myself "I hope they're not imagining that just tacking on a scene where they get to make out one last time in spore space makes this OK -- they get that they have to ACTUALLY bring him back, right? They must understand that just allowing them to say goodbye does nothing to lessen the tacky grossness of killing this character that way, don't they?"

I'm still holding out (fading) hope of an actual resurrection for Culber, but this felt pretty final. If this is it... what a complete and disgusting betrayal of everything they claimed they wanted to accomplish with this couple.

I am such a hardcore ride-or-die Trek fan. Outside of this issue, I can't imagine how bad Discovery would have to be for me to even contemplate stopping. But to have waited for decades to see gay characters in Star Trek, to finally be introduced to such an awesome couple, and if this is the way that relationship ends after only a handful of episode... betrayal is the only word for it. Betrayal of the audience and betrayal of the essential Star Trek values that is the only thru-line I need this franchise to have.

I've tried to defend these writers and view their decisions in the most favorable light, but if this is it for Culber, they really are hacks who have no idea what they're doing.

 

[johnjm22]

This is as close to objectively wrong as an opinion can be.

No, she's awful on this show.

 

[guyute03]

I liked the unflinching brutality of the MU this week; this wasn't coy, campy evil with gold sashes and ambiguous sexuality played for laughs. This was a universe of real horrors, which you could believe would generate amoral monsters.

This really stood out to me as well. Absolutely brutal weaponry. Georgou's "disc" weapon, that parastie injection thing, filling up a hangar bay with Antagonizers. Horrific. Way more menacing than DS9's MU.

 

[Mr Awe]

That's excuse-making. Come on, these producers spend a season building up to "surprises" that the Internet nails within days of their set-up.

They're not surprises. They're plot developments/mysteries where clues are provided so that viewers who are paying attention can guess/anticipate them. It's not surprising that a BBS with many fans paying attention to everything will figure them out. The alternative is to not provide the clues and just surprise people. There can be some value in outright surprises but it can also get old when there is not ground work.

YMMV in terms of how you like their approach. I think the reveals have been excellent. Even though we collectively guessed some of these developments, I felt there were still good payoffs.

 

[Mr Awe]

Again, you're making excuses for these hacks repeatedly bungling their reveals.

We get it, you don't like the show. Go watch something else then.