Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

[Ovation]

If he's her surrogate father

Not all "father-figures" are all that parental. That said, if it was a relationship where he acted in a "fatherly manner" as she grew up, then the affair is highly troubling (though hardly a novel idea). But sometimes "seeing a father (or mother)" is almost entirely from the POV of the younger person and can be very ephemeral as a state of mind. In any case, at the moment, we only have the word of the homicidal maniac who just murdered her own council to go by. I'd hold off on final judgements, just yet.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

.

The fact we don't have a word for that is because in reality, there is no sentient beings other homo sapiens left on earth today.

George and Gracie would disagree.

 

[Captain Killy]

Georgiou: "In Lorca you saw a father. Until you grew up and it became more."

Burnham: "You're saying Lorca and I?"

Georgiou denies nothing.

Georgiou: "He groomed you. He chose you."

Lorca (in flashback): "I did choose you. But not for the reasons you think."

Georgiou: "He told you destiny brought you together."

Lorca (in flasback): "A different universe, yet somehow the same people had a way to find each other. The strongest argument I've ever seen for the existence of destiny."

Georgiou: "He said he'd cross time and space itself to take what was rightfully his."

.
.
.

There was a romance between Lorca and Mirror Burnham. Before you try to argue there wasn't, I'm going to cut you off right now and tell you to cut the crap. Don't bother trying to convince me of otherwise. It's a waste of time because you won't. I know what I heard.

He also wanted her as a partner to overthrow Georgiou.

But I can't abide his having an affair with Burnham. If he's her surrogate father then that relationship has no business happening. Of course, different Universe different values, but this isn't a character I can get behind.

He's fascinating to watch like Walter White, Tony Soprano, or Don Draper but that's as far as it goes.

This.

 

[starmike]

So this mirror universe has super star destroyers with dwarf star technology?
Yet in Mirror Mirror they have the same Connie with the same level of tech?
Pretty much puts any arguments over this being a form of reboot to bed

Aside from Green’s horribly wooden acting and the fact that they apparently went back in time to recruit B5’s original effects team to render the iss super star destroyer I loved the episode.

We all knew Lorca reveal was coming but I can’t but feel disappointed as he is such a wonderful character, interesting Captain and character. Looks like Issac’s time on the show is drawing to a close

I guess you never watched TNG?

 

[STR]

Ned was the Leto Atreides of the first book. He very obviously had to die so the Stark children could become protagonists in their own rights (and the fact that Rob didn't have any POV scenes telegraphed which children were actual protags and which were being saved for a later "twist"). It's a bog standard development for any novel where kids are major characters.

Sure, that's how it played IN THE BOOKS. Most people, even fans of the show, did not read the books. Certainly not before the premiere. Ned was certainly a POV character in the show.

Also, I can't recall any scene in Discovery that's (at least conclusively) from Tilly's POV. It's always her with someone else who would be considered a more important character. Not that I'm reading much into that.

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

I guess you never watched TNG?

This is set in the next gen era? Learn something new every day

 

[starmike]

This is set in the next gen era? Learn something new every day

I didn't say it was, did I? There's a reason for the ship.

 

[Borgminister]

Haven't voted yet but--TEN. 37 minutes would've preferred 47 but... expert storytelling and direction.

 

[Refuge]

Georgiou: "In Lorca you saw a father. Until you grew up and it became more."

Burnham: "You're saying Lorca and I?"

Georgiou denies nothing.

Georgiou: "He groomed you. He chose you."

Lorca (in flashback): "I did choose you. But not for the reasons you think."

Georgiou: "He told you destiny brought you together."

Lorca (in flasback): "A different universe, yet somehow the same people had a way to find each other. The strongest argument I've ever seen for the existence of destiny."

Georgiou: "He said he'd cross time and space itself to take what was rightfully his."

.
.
.

There was a romance between Lorca and Mirror Burnham. Before you try to argue there wasn't, I'm going to cut you off right now and tell you to cut the crap. Don't bother trying to convince me of otherwise. It's a waste of time because you won't. I know what I heard.

He also wanted her as a partner to overthrow Georgiou.

But I can't abide his having an affair with Burnham. If he's her surrogate father then that relationship has no business happening. Of course, different Universe different values, but this isn't a character I can get behind.

He's fascinating to watch like Walter White, Tony Soprano, or Don Draper but that's as far as it goes.

Our Burnham had a different father. Lorca is not her surrogate father. Far be it for me to defend Lorca, but this is not Michael's history.

 

[T'Bonz]

Georgiou: "In Lorca you saw a father. Until you grew up and it became more."

Burnham: "You're saying Lorca and I?"

Georgiou denies nothing.

Georgiou: "He groomed you. He chose you."

Lorca (in flashback): "I did choose you. But not for the reasons you think."

Georgiou: "He told you destiny brought you together."

Lorca (in flasback): "A different universe, yet somehow the same people had a way to find each other. The strongest argument I've ever seen for the existence of destiny."

Georgiou: "He said he'd cross time and space itself to take what was rightfully his."

.
.
.

There was a romance between Lorca and Mirror Burnham. Before you try to argue there wasn't, I'm going to cut you off right now and tell you to cut the crap. Don't bother trying to convince me of otherwise. It's a waste of time because you won't. I know what I heard.

He also wanted her as a partner to overthrow Georgiou.

But I can't abide his having an affair with Burnham. If he's her surrogate father then that relationship has no business happening. Of course, different Universe different values, but this isn't a character I can get behind.

He's fascinating to watch like Walter White, Tony Soprano, or Don Draper but that's as far as it goes.

This is assuming that Georgiou is telling the truth. It could be that the romance was something innocent that happened when she became an adult and that he was *not* a "father figure" in her life prior to the romance. How would Burnham know if Georgiou was telling the truth? She doesn't know and could be blinded by her love of her Georgiou.

The best way for Georgiou to get Burnham on her side is to make Lorca the bad guy and to say whatever she feels would work to convince Burnham. He may, or may not be as bad as she made him out to be. Or he may be someone who is bad to a point - not a good guy or innocent but not what Georgiou painted him either.

We'll find out one way or the other.

I'll miss him next season. He wasn't your typical Berman-era dull character.

 

[indranee]

Just finished watching and haven't read through the thread, but I have two questions I'm hoping some of you can answer:
1) Does the Disco crew know that Culber is dead? I guess his body was discovered? We didn't see that, right? Did I miss it?
2) So OUR Lorca is where?

I gotta say that a lotta fans called this as soon as we saw him sleeping with a gun. I'm not yet sure of the grade. I'm still mulling it.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Just finished watching and haven't read through the thread, but I have two questions I'm hoping some of you can answer:
1) Does the Disco crew know that Culber is dead? I guess his body was discovered? We didn't see that, right? Did I miss it?
2) So OUR Lorca is where?

I gotta say that a lotta fans called this as soon as we saw him sleeping with a gun. I'm not yet sure of the grade. I'm still mulling it.

1) yes
2) probably died with his ship

 

[Amaris]

I concede it would be a mistake to kill off some of these characters we have become invested in. I wouldn't miss Landry at all. Nor Georgiou. However Culber, and if it comes to it, Lorca matter. (On the fence about Tyler as I'm not sure he's a lost cause yet).

I really think though that if Lorca goes it would be a deal breaker for some viewers.

I understand that. Of course, everyone has a favorite.

For me, Stamets and Culber are the heart of the show. They are the soul, the humanity of this ship. I also love Tilly because she's me in female form, but with more outward cheeriness.

 

[Refuge]

I guess if the writers and actor is willing our Lorca could've escaped the Buran and be elsewhere.

I understand that. Of course, everyone has a favorite.

For me, Stamets and Culber are the heart of the show. They are the soul, the humanity of this ship. I also love Tilly because she's me in female form, but with more outward cheeriness.

Well, since you said that I like Tilly more

 

[indranee]

I love Tilly more and more every time I see her. She's pretty much my favorite character on the ship.

 

[Lord Garth]

Our Burnham had a different father. Lorca is not her surrogate father. Far be it for me to defend Lorca, but this is not Michael's history.

Doesn't change that he had a relationship with Mirror Burnham.

It could be that the romance was something innocent that happened when she became an adult and that he was *not* a "father figure" in her life prior to the romance.

While that's possible, I'd think Georgiou would've wanted to find Michael a father figure long before she turned 18.

How would Burnham know if Georgiou was telling the truth?

There is that too. It'll come out either way soon, which will be interesting to see.

I'll miss him next season. He wasn't your typical Berman-era dull character.

This is very true. I rarely get angry with fictional characters. Especially this angry. I can probably count the number of times in my entire life on one hand. And definitely not with any characters from Berman Trek.

 

[MvRojo]

I'm not sure it was supposed to be a 'secret' in that sense. like with Voq they showed hints to that twist very early on. if they want to keep it 'secret' you don't hint at it. it's a surprise for the protagonist

That's a good point. For example, from one of Tyler/Voq's first lines, we already knew he was lying while others didn't. Because he said or implied that he was with L'Rell since the Battle of the Binary Stars when we all know that wasn't possible because she was stranded on the Sarcophagus ship for six months until Kol came along.

 

[theonering]

Just an observation that is kind of bugging me about the mirror universe's "star fleet"...
If they've had a Constitution class starship around to reverse engineer since 100 years ago in this timeline, shouldn't everything be significantly more advanced than has been depicted so far? Granted the Imperial flagship is unlike anything we've seen before, but why is the mirror Shenzhou roughly the same ship as the one seen in the home universe?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Just an observation that is kind of bugging me about the mirror universe's "star fleet"...
If they've had a Constitution class starship around to reverse engineer since 100 years ago in this timeline, shouldn't everything be significantly more advanced than has been depicted so far? Granted the Imperial flagship is unlike anything we've seen before, but why is the mirror Shenzhou roughly the same ship as the one seen in the home universe?

Because they have that model and the one for the Discovery in the database.

 

[lursa]

It was good to see Culber in this episode. The show needed a bit of innocent love and kindness during the MU arc.

Need some mind bleach after the Lorca/Burnham stuff. There are better ways to show that somebody is a bad person, and there are probably a lot of fans who don't want those topics dragged up as a plot device.

Anyways, yeah... highly recommend the After Trek for this ep.
During the scene where Georgiou kills off a bunch of her officers/guards/whatever, my partner busted out laughing because he thought it was a "Mirror Universe fidget spinner" - on After Trek, the writer actually says it was inspired by a fidget spinner. Almost cried from laughing so hard. Gonna go get that mind bleach now, though.