I'm not sure if the 'Lorca' model of Starfleet was a better one but his story had a different kind of track when he was simply damaged Lorca. The story itself was milking the concept of this flawed man, at least it did until the predictions of him being mirror Lorca became confirmed. Now everything is just this easy 'fix' - a cheat. Much like finding out Tyler was Voq. Again another easy fix and prediction. Any investment one had in the complexities of a prisoner/male abuse story or in Michael falling for him was exchanged for a 'gotcha' moment. Hey forget all that, he's Voq. Same with Stamets and Culber. Their love story culminated in Culber being murdered for the drama. Yet every death seems to be going the same way. Someone dies. Oh hang on, not really dead. Death and consequence of action means nothing.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
I really think it was MU Saru. The Empress did it to teach Burnham a lesson.
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Amaris
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In fairness, that's the way it has always been in Star Trek. Nobody ever really dies.
Hello all, this is my first post. Although I have visited this board going years back I only started following in detail the Discovery forum as it was not a past series. I am really enjoying this series although it is quite a lot different from what former series were like. I figure its time to not lurk and post. And I've enjoyed reading this board throughout the series.
There have been many plot twists and some have been hinted. I'm taking a wild and perhaps uneducated guess, but I see the mirror universe finale shaping up to putting Burnham to a decision where she'll have to choose between MU Lorca and MU Georgiou.
Consider that PU Burnham acted with highly questionable conduct -- mutiny -- at the beginning of the series, while Georgiou was touting the highest Starfleet ethics. Burnham thought the ends justified the means of mutiny.
Compare to Lorca. We know he is MU, but in the PU, he likewise seemed to appeal to the ends to justify his means. He was there to win a war, not be moral. That sounds familiar to Burnham, who wanted to win a battle when she mutinied.
Now flip to the MU. In the MU, Georgiou is the most ruthless by all reports. A sharp contrast to her in the PU.
There have been aspects of even MU Lorca in PU which do not fit with pure MU behaviour -- he is somewhat morally ambiguous. So is Burnham because of her mutiny.
So I speculate that, if the PU Georgiou is the most moral person in the PU, the MU Georgiou is the most unmoral. Each of PU and MU Lorca and Burnham are more to the middle of pure morality vs non-morality, and that might impact the final decision Burnham has to make when the final confrontation comes.
Lorca keeps asking Burnham if he can trust her. He is a master manipulator.
I've been wildly wrong speculating to myself watching the show and reading these threads in the past, but I'd like to put this theory forward just in case.
I am looking forward to the next episode!
There have been many plot twists and some have been hinted. I'm taking a wild and perhaps uneducated guess, but I see the mirror universe finale shaping up to putting Burnham to a decision where she'll have to choose between MU Lorca and MU Georgiou.
Consider that PU Burnham acted with highly questionable conduct -- mutiny -- at the beginning of the series, while Georgiou was touting the highest Starfleet ethics. Burnham thought the ends justified the means of mutiny.
Compare to Lorca. We know he is MU, but in the PU, he likewise seemed to appeal to the ends to justify his means. He was there to win a war, not be moral. That sounds familiar to Burnham, who wanted to win a battle when she mutinied.
Now flip to the MU. In the MU, Georgiou is the most ruthless by all reports. A sharp contrast to her in the PU.
There have been aspects of even MU Lorca in PU which do not fit with pure MU behaviour -- he is somewhat morally ambiguous. So is Burnham because of her mutiny.
So I speculate that, if the PU Georgiou is the most moral person in the PU, the MU Georgiou is the most unmoral. Each of PU and MU Lorca and Burnham are more to the middle of pure morality vs non-morality, and that might impact the final decision Burnham has to make when the final confrontation comes.
Lorca keeps asking Burnham if he can trust her. He is a master manipulator.
I've been wildly wrong speculating to myself watching the show and reading these threads in the past, but I'd like to put this theory forward just in case.
I am looking forward to the next episode!
I gave it a solid 7 this week. Loved the direction and visuals. I thought the scenes with Mirror Stamets and with Culber were very good. Michelle Yeoh was awesome, as always. I liked what we saw from Tyler/Voq and L'Rell...no idea where that will be heading.
I can't help but be disappointed in the MU Lorca reveal. Lorca was a great character and this really bums me out. It almost assures us that Isaacs won't be a regular in S2. I was also very disappointed in the length of the show.
Still, it's been a great ride and I'm looking forward to how they close this all out.
I can't help but be disappointed in the MU Lorca reveal. Lorca was a great character and this really bums me out. It almost assures us that Isaacs won't be a regular in S2. I was also very disappointed in the length of the show.
Still, it's been a great ride and I'm looking forward to how they close this all out.
I think they might have rewritten his DNA, so he is Tyler on a certain level.
I can see Burnham having a soft spot for Emperor Georgiou because she sees traits in her that remind her of her captain. I can see Georgiou having some personal feelings for this Burnham, too. After all, at least this one hasn't betrayed her, and it doesn't seem like she will. Of course, Burnham also has to remember she saw this Georgiou eat Kelpian and she did destroy a rebel outpost in cold blood.
That said, I can also see her wanting to be protective of Georgiou against Lorca, given what she's found out about him. But however this shakes out, I think things are going to come down to Burnham having to choose between her feelings for Georgiou and Lorca and work to save one and destroy the other. Thing is she may find it's Lorca who is really the one on the right side of the conflict within the Empire. Not necessarily to bring it down, but at least to be a less ruthless Empire under him -- or he may even want to declare a republic. Lorca may be our hero, yet.
That said, I can also see her wanting to be protective of Georgiou against Lorca, given what she's found out about him. But however this shakes out, I think things are going to come down to Burnham having to choose between her feelings for Georgiou and Lorca and work to save one and destroy the other. Thing is she may find it's Lorca who is really the one on the right side of the conflict within the Empire. Not necessarily to bring it down, but at least to be a less ruthless Empire under him -- or he may even want to declare a republic. Lorca may be our hero, yet.
Yeah CBS isn't really taking full advantage of this format
I concede it would be a mistake to kill off some of these characters we have become invested in. I wouldn't miss Landry at all. Nor Georgiou. However Culber, and if it comes to it, Lorca matter. (On the fence about Tyler as I'm not sure he's a lost cause yet).
I really think though that if Lorca goes it would be a deal breaker for some viewers.
Arbitrary run-times doesn't have to mean it's always longer. Run times have been bouncing around all season, between 40 and 50 minutes. If it were on TV, every episode would've needed to be cut to a window of a few seconds. Other streaming shows I've watched have had sub-40-minute episodes, mixed in with their 60- and 70-minute grueling marathons of drama.
Yeah 37 minute episode on a streaming service, come on!
I can see that Lorca creates a terran empire less racist and that this will allow in the future that spock will be emperor
I see several posts mentioning that Lorca may not be back in S2. Why is that? If he does something to vindicate himself why wouldn't he stick around? Also right now only Burnham knows he is MU. Maybe she will keep quiet so as to save him, after all her actions cost her last captain to loose her life.
Ned was the Leto Atreides of the first book. He very obviously had to die so the Stark children could become protagonists in their own rights (and the fact that Rob didn't have any POV scenes telegraphed which children were actual protags and which were being saved for a later "twist"). It's a bog standard development for any novel where kids are major characters.
Too bad the Empress didn't capture Voq and cook him up, poetic justice...
unlikely. In the next time trailer we see that Saru already knows about Lorca
Georgiou: "In Lorca you saw a father. Until you grew up and it became more."
Burnham: "You're saying Lorca and I?"
Georgiou denies nothing.
Georgiou: "He groomed you. He chose you."
Lorca (in flashback): "I did choose you. But not for the reasons you think."
Georgiou: "He told you destiny brought you together."
Lorca (in flasback): "A different universe, yet somehow the same people had a way to find each other. The strongest argument I've ever seen for the existence of destiny."
Georgiou: "He said he'd cross time and space itself to take what was rightfully his."
.
.
.
There was a romance between Lorca and Mirror Burnham. Before you try to argue there wasn't, I'm going to cut you off right now and tell you to cut the crap. Don't bother trying to convince me of otherwise. It's a waste of time because you won't. I know what I heard.
He also wanted her as a partner to overthrow Georgiou.
But I can't abide his having an affair with Burnham. If he's her surrogate father then that relationship has no business happening. Of course, different Universe different values, but this isn't a character I can get behind.
He's fascinating to watch like Walter White, Tony Soprano, or Don Draper but that's as far as it goes.
Burnham: "You're saying Lorca and I?"
Georgiou denies nothing.
Georgiou: "He groomed you. He chose you."
Lorca (in flashback): "I did choose you. But not for the reasons you think."
Georgiou: "He told you destiny brought you together."
Lorca (in flasback): "A different universe, yet somehow the same people had a way to find each other. The strongest argument I've ever seen for the existence of destiny."
Georgiou: "He said he'd cross time and space itself to take what was rightfully his."
.
.
.
There was a romance between Lorca and Mirror Burnham. Before you try to argue there wasn't, I'm going to cut you off right now and tell you to cut the crap. Don't bother trying to convince me of otherwise. It's a waste of time because you won't. I know what I heard.
He also wanted her as a partner to overthrow Georgiou.
But I can't abide his having an affair with Burnham. If he's her surrogate father then that relationship has no business happening. Of course, different Universe different values, but this isn't a character I can get behind.
He's fascinating to watch like Walter White, Tony Soprano, or Don Draper but that's as far as it goes.
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Mindhunter (excellent Netflix series) usually has 50-55 minute episodes but one is under 40 and did not suffer for it. Length does not equal quality (far too many "extended edition" films prove that point--though some others are vital to improve on the initial release).
I am disappointed Lorca is MU--I too was happy to see a "non-TNG perfect" major character in Starfleet who was not a one and done villain. But I've never expected more than uncomplicated entertainment from Trek, and I've certainly been entertained by DSC.
