Before the prequels, I hadn’t heard the radio dramas.
For a long time, all I had was the movies themselves. Before the dark times. Before the internet.
Spoilers What happened the night the Ben turned on Luke
- Thread starter JD
- Start date
Before the prequels, I hadn’t heard the radio dramas.
For a long time, all I had was the movies themselves. Before the dark times. Before the internet.
I had these things called "books." Not sure if you have heard of them. I used to have to walk to a place called a library to read more about Star Wars. It was magical, especially "books on tape." I think they had that in Guardians of the Galaxy once.
I'll need to grab the novels, but a cursory read of Wookiepedia (reliable, right?) is that in ROTJ Obi-Wan refers to Owen as "his brother."
Interesting. Very interesting.
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double post
Here's the Obi-Wan and Luke scene as written in the script. I've italicized the deleted section, and bolded the part we're talking about.
Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.
Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.
Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of his
sister.
BEN
The other he spoke of is your twin sister.
LUKE
But I have no sister.
BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your
father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were
to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the
reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.
BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They
do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.
The other he spoke of is your twin sister.
LUKE
But I have no sister.
BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your
father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were
to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the
reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.
BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They
do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.
Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.
BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your
mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep
you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you
to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took Leia
to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.
When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your
mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep
you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you
to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took Leia
to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.
Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.
BEN (attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in
that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage... no one knew
she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power,
since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family
continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster
father's path, became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of
course... she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the
corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a
vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause. That's what she
was doing when her path crossed yours... for her foster parents had
always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became
desperate.
The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in
that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage... no one knew
she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power,
since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family
continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster
father's path, became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of
course... she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the
corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a
vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause. That's what she
was doing when her path crossed yours... for her foster parents had
always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became
desperate.
Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of his
sister.
LUKE
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.
BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the Jedi the way you have,
Luke... but the Force is strong with her, as it is with all of your
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You must face and destroy
Vader!
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.
BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the Jedi the way you have,
Luke... but the Force is strong with her, as it is with all of your
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You must face and destroy
Vader!
That's what I thought.
I had these things called "books." Not sure if you have heard of them. I used to have to walk to a place called a library to read more about Star Wars. It was magical, especially "books on tape." I think they had that in Guardians of the Galaxy once.
.
I was 9 when TPM came out. In rural Australia. Our local library had maybe five Star Wars books.
And one of them was Darksaber. Which as every true fan knows, doesn’t count.
Seriously, I would be very surprised if the radio dramas were even available here at that time. I kinda doubt they aired here in the first place. Even now, the only ‘tape’ version currently being sold in Aussie stores is ANH.
From online Aussie stores.
It’s like living next to hell, I tell ya.
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I can't follow what you're trying to say. Ben's decided not to what?
I'm taking about Anakin after he killed people. Not as a child. Obi Wan took him out after he did crap, not before. Ben Solo hadn't done anything at the point Luke confronted him. Yes, now he has, but that was all after the fact.
I'm not saying Luke is irredeemable. I'm saying Luke, the hero of the story wouldn't make that choice in the first place.
As it was presented as "the briefest moment of pure instinct," I didn't have a problem with it. I would have, if it had been preceded by more of a conscious deliberation on Luke's part (perhaps that's a compromise Johnson made with Hamill), but as it was, Luke looked inside Ben's mind and saw darkness that he hadn't imagined, and was momentarily overwhelmed. Igniting his lightsaber was an instinctive reaction to an intrusive thought, probably amplified by the aura of darkness Ben was radiating at the time; my girlfriend likened it to a war veteran jumping at a car backfiring.
I also found it believable that Luke would then nonetheless beat himself up about that for a long time afterwards, holding himself to the same standard as many fans do. He betrayed his own principles; he was the idealist who believed in his father and refused to kill him despite Yoda's and Obi-Wan's urging, and he allowed himself to entertain the abhorrent thought of defeating the darkness in his nephew by nipping it in the bud, if only for a moment; that very criticism that the fans are levelling at the character's actions is why Luke hates himself so much. Now, whether it was out of character for him to completely disappear into exile is another thing - Mark Hamill certainly thought so, but then again, he's been through a lot of pain and suffering, on screen in the OT and possibly afterwards too, and I can believe that it would all get on top of him eventually. This Luke isn't the hero of the story anymore; narratively, the young Luke wouldn't have been called on to make that choice, but his hero's journey ended in ROTJ.
I do find it curious how some people seem to think that Luke ought to behave like some flawless paragon of rightness and wisdom. Never making a wrong move or even thinking--however briefly--anything other than pure heroic thoughts.
Did any of you guys actually see the OT? He was impatient, full of self doubt and always a simmering anger just beneath the surface. He's still the same person he ever was, only wiser, experienced and more centred. Those character flaws aren't something that magically disappeared once the Emperor was defeated.
So yes, for the briefest of moments, the unbidden thought crossed his mind to end the next Darth Vader before history repeated itself...and then the moment past as wisdom prevailed.
Did any of you guys actually see the OT? He was impatient, full of self doubt and always a simmering anger just beneath the surface. He's still the same person he ever was, only wiser, experienced and more centred. Those character flaws aren't something that magically disappeared once the Emperor was defeated.
So yes, for the briefest of moments, the unbidden thought crossed his mind to end the next Darth Vader before history repeated itself...and then the moment past as wisdom prevailed.
Ben’s. Master. Decided. Against. Cutting. Ben. To. Pieces,
I’m complaining about how you never actually address the points you quote. You just pretend to, whilst really just changing the subject.
And I may have made a crack about your ‘Heroic Moral Compass’ being a bit wobbly.
“Torturing a completely helpless Anakin, for no other reason than the act gave personal satisfaction? No issue here. White hat hero status is totally unblemished.
A telepathic clairvoyant is tempted to kill a future child murderer, and save any potential victims? Our hero would never do such a thing!”
I know what you meant. Thanks.
But until someone (besides you) seriously brings up any character deserving to be murdered, it’s totally irrelevant.
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And I'm saying "No." Luke has weaknesses and flaws throughout the story, and this was one of those moments. He saw the Darkness, reacted on instinct, stopped himself, and then it all went down anyway.
Heroes have flaws.
ETA:
A video discussing how TLJ didn't "ruin" Luke, and how he comes full circle. It's a brief discussion, but one of the things that stood out to me is the fact that Luke's discovery on Ach-To led him to believe that the Jedi had failed, and he had failed similarly, by allowing the Dark Side to grow under his nose.
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Right! Except when it came to his Nephew... But if he is wiser, experienced and more centered that should all help him deal with that situation better than he did.
Ok, well this is going to piss you off then because i'm going to "pretend" to do that again.
Didn't say that. Didn't even "pretend" to say that.
Obi Wan left him to die.
Luke didn't kill Ben, yes, but there was intent for a moment, I am against that intent. If you pull a gun on someone unexpectedly at night while they are sleeping they probably will think the worst and try to shoot you first.
That was my point, Luke wouldn't. My point still stands. Ben was a child, he hadn't killed anyone. Nobody was dead, the future Luke saw was not fixed.
Well folks, it seems I'm not allowed to argue this any further with Hela and my points are not serious, pretend and totally irrelevant. So if anyone else wants to step in be my guest.
I'm sure had the opportunity been there, he would have taken it (indeed, that's why he was there in the first place), but circumstances conspired to make that impossible. Also, you know there's a world of difference between a *momentary*, damn near reflexive thought that comes and goes in a second, and a premeditated attempted murder, right?
From Luke's perspective, touching Ben's mind that night was the equivalent of coming to talk to someone about their sullen mood and short temper, and finding their room filled with Nazi memorabilia, serial killer paraphernalia and a half built nail bomb. That's enough to make anyone recoil in horror. He simply wasn't prepared for just how far gone Ben already was. Add to that Luke's own family history and his initial--if fleeting--reaction is perfectly reasonable.
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Except in response to the Dark Side, a weakness still there from Jedi teachings.
Also, this
You're persistently proceeding from a false assumption. Luke didn't turn on anyone.
He reacted. He didn't "turn on" his nephew. It exposed a flaw in the Jedi thinking, one that Luke saw as a failure being repeated again by himself.
Turned on . . . reacted . . . whatever. I still believe that considering his past history, he would have confronted Whatshisname about the matter, considering that the latter was his nephew.
I think it mirrors Anakin's reaction in ROTS to Palpatine. Similar relationship and yet, the Jedi in him still reacted. That's what training is for-You don't think; you react. Jedi were trained to react to the Dark Side, to push it away, to shun it at all costs and destroy it. Even Anakin, who was mentored by Palpatine over over a decade reacted:
Also worth pointing out that this is a person whom we know for a *fact* was a hair's breadth away from succumbing to the dark side himself and *still* his first instinct was to draw his blade. Zero hesitation.I think it mirrors Anakin's reaction in ROTS to Palpatine. Similar relationship and yet, the Jedi in him still reacted. That's what training is for-You don't think; you react. Jedi were trained to react to the Dark Side, to push it away, to shun it at all costs and destroy it. Even Anakin, who was mentored by Palpatine over over a decade reacted:
Indeed, in this instance the only thing that stopped him from cutting Sidious in half right then and there was precisely because he was being tempted by the dark side. Knowing Anakin from TCW, had he gone through with that (and survived the attempt) he would not have had the slightest moral twinge from cutting down a man he'd know for over a decade. Hurt and irritated at the betrayal, sure, but in no doubt of his moral rightness.
Which rather nicely illustrates the difference between Anakin & Luke. Anakin held back out of fear (of loosing Padme) while Luke held back out of compassion. Also, self-doubt has always been Luke's Achilles' heel.
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