Discovery Size Argument™ thread

[Prax]

I thought the Kelvin universe was a completely separate thing.

Anyways, if people are complaining that the ships are becoming too big, first in the reboots, then in Disc., how will using examples from those same two iterations to say "See, they did have big ol ships in that era" soothe their ruffled feathers?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I thought the Kelvin universe was a completely separate thing.

It's not.

Anyways, if people are complaining that the ships are becoming too big, first in the reboots, then in Disc., how will using examples from those same two iterations to say "See, they did have big ol ships in that era" soothe their ruffled feathers?

I came here to talk about Star Trek, and figure out what Starfleet is and how it functions based on what it's shown us in the past and is beginning to show us now. If you want to talk about how the new stuff hurts your feelings, go cry to your mommy.

 

[Prax]

...wow

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Given that USS Kelvin is a starship common to both timelines

Which is not a given at all, it is at best disputable, which makes every conclusion based on that totally inaccurate.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Which is not a given at all, it is at best disputable

That someone makes a titanic effort TO dispute it doesn't make it "disputable." All official sources tell us that the "parallel universe" of the Kelvin films begins with Nero's arrival, and thus Kelvin's presence -- and indeed, existence -- is not a result of that event. More to the point, Spock Prime pretty much verifies this himself by stating that Kirk knew his father in the prime timeline and that "he lived to see you become captain of the Enterprise" and that he was Kirk's inspiration for joining Starfleet in the first place. This is at least one datapoint that corroborates George Kirk's Starfleet career and suggests that Kelvin both existed and WASN'T destroyed in the prime timeline.

which makes every conclusion based on that totally inaccurate.

It makes it unpleasant, depending on your preferences. You are certainly entitled to your preferences, but you are not entitled to your own alternate facts.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

All official sources

Simon Pegg contradicted that and he is an official source. That’s a real and not "alternate" fact.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Simon Pegg contradicted that and he is an official source.

Interviews, twitter posts and blog entries are not considered to be canon.

 

[cultcross]

If you want to talk about how the new stuff hurts your feelings, go cry to your mommy.

Over the line, and I suspect you knew that. Infraction for trolling, comments to PM.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Interviews, twitter posts and blog entries are not considered to be canon.

All official sources tell us...

That seems like a dichotomy to me...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That seems like a dichotomy to me...

The same sources that tell us what is and isn't canon -- namely, studio executives and press releases -- are the sources that tell us where these things fit together. Simon Pegg's interviews are not. He can have his own private theory about how things might work or what might be happening (just like Shatner can try to claim that Kirk survived the bridge fall in "Generations" and went on to have all kinds of whacky adventures with the Romulans and the Borg) but Paramount has final say over how all those events fit together.

Now having said all that:
It is ENTIRELY possible that Paramount (without officially stating as much) considers the Kelvinverse films to be a hard reboot of the entire franchise and that Spock Prime isn't from the "prime timeline" as we understand it. I privately believe this is probably the case, and that Discovery, despite the best intentions of its producers, is going to wind up taking this same tack. Until we have official endorsement of that position from TPTB, though, we have to treat the new material as updated additions to the old. We aren't free to pick and choose what we "prefer" to believe based on preconceptions, because at a certain point you wind up trying to force old interpretations onto new data that doesn't in any way support those interpretations.

 

[Tuskin38]

despite the best intentions of its producers, is going to wind up taking this same tack. Until we have official endorsement of that position from TPTB, though, we have to treat the new material as updated additions to the old. We aren't free to pick and choose what we "prefer" to believe based on preconceptions, because at a certain point you wind up trying to force old interpretations onto new data that doesn't in any way support those interpretations.

The producers and writers of DSC are TPTB in this case, they determine the story with the studios consent.
If CBS didn't intend DSC to be prime they would have probably told them to stop saying it was in press.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

OK @Crazy Eddie you’ve made your points and I’ve made mine. I respectfully disagree with some of your conclusions because I feel the opposite is also true. If you try to force new interpretations onto old data you’ll reach interpretations that aren’t supported in any real way. And I’ll leave it at that.

It is ENTIRELY possible that Paramount (without officially stating as much) considers the Kelvinverse films to be a hard reboot of the entire franchise and that Spock Prime isn't from the "prime timeline" as we understand it. I privately believe this is probably the case, and that Discovery, despite the best intentions of its producers, is going to wind up taking this same tack.

At least we agree on something. That’s good to know.

 

[Ronald Held]

I am not convinced the Kelvin timeline was created by Nero and Spock,but was a close parallel universe. Also Trek has had temporal changes not just go forward.

 

[RuthlessNate]

Here's my take (basically in line with Simon Pegg's).

We know that time travel by Kirk and the 24th century crews to the 20th and 21st centuries had impacts on their own timeline. If the future (uptime) after the point that the Narada arrived in the Kelvin universe changed, then conceivably those trips back to the past (downtime) would have been affected due to changes in the lives of the time travelers in question. Therefore, the arrival of the Narada affected things both uptime and downtime as soon as it arrived in the past. It's a ripple effect that goes in both directions, so the past of the Kelvin universe is not identical to the Prime universe up to the Narada's arrival.

 

[Prax]

And Spock Prime is still Spock Prime.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The producers and writers of DSC are TPTB in this case, they determine the story with the studios consent.
If CBS didn't intend DSC to be prime they would have probably told them to stop saying it was in press.

They might HAVE told them this. For all we know Akiva Goldsmith's remarks were followed by a phone call from someone up the chain to the effect of "Dude, we talked about this, you can't make promises like that!"

For now, though, we have the official line that still puts them all in the same overall continuity so we have to interpret it that way until otherwise specified.

 

[Markonian]

Do we have any way of telling the size of the other Starfleet ships? Shapewise they look like small starships, but at least the Shepard class and Europa classes must be as humongous as the Disco/Shenzhou.

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

Why is everyone so hostile
It’s a soft reboot
The movies were a hard reboot

Now that we’ve seen this soft reboot version of a constitution class I’m sure it will be upsacled in size accordingly prob even bigger than the ugly JJprise
At least the wire mesh we’ve seen looks closer to MattJeffries design than the Ryan church piece of garbage

So we’re (apparently) getting a 700 m plus Connie which more closely resembles our beloved classic (minus the reliant phaser cannon thingies) which unlike the moves does not actually reboot the stories and characters themselves ( Kirk is shatner not Han Solo/Skywalker/pine)

I’m fine with a soft reboot of designs as long as the characters and stories are left alone
(Although the Klingon designs are God’s awful, the makeup and the video game alien ships and the mouth full of phlegm and marbles dialogue )
But thats another discussion for another day

 

[XCV330]

I don't understand getting upset about a differnet looking Defiant anyway. Ships are cool. People always like to talk about a new ship design, especially when they look good (Discovery) or even when they don't (Disco Klingon Stuff).

and the wireframe looks good. I hope they show the whole model. Interiors would even be better. Bring back orange hexagons.

 

[UssGlenn]

Here's my take (basically in line with Simon Pegg's).

We know that time travel by Kirk and the 24th century crews to the 20th and 21st centuries had impacts on their own timeline. If the future (uptime) after the point that the Narada arrived in the Kelvin universe changed, then conceivably those trips back to the past (downtime) would have been affected due to changes in the lives of the time travelers in question. Therefore, the arrival of the Narada affected things both uptime and downtime as soon as it arrived in the past. It's a ripple effect that goes in both directions, so the past of the Kelvin universe is not identical to the Prime universe up to the Narada's arrival.

Exactly this. What's more, when uptime changes cause downtime changes due to time travel, uptime changes yet again which causes more downtime changes due to the time travel incidents being different again. This repeats over and over diverging the timeline more and more till the timeline becomes stable. From an audience perspective it's instantaneous.