Can We Talk About Solok?

[Hahawaitwhat]

I'm a new fan watching DS9 for the first time and I don't know why, but I really found Captain Solok a captivating character. I wish we could have/would have seen more of him throughout DS9 instead of just one (relatively) cheesy episode about baseball. I know he gets a lot of hate, but...

I got the distinct impression that Solok had such a low opinion of humans because he was overcompensating. It seemed to me that he, more so than other Vulcans, had a hard time repressing his emotions. He lost his cool with Odo and if you watch closely, he was the only Vulcan that flinched when Nog tagged him (after the one Vulcan didn't touch the home plate). I love the idea of a Vulcan who struggles with repression. I also liked the idea of an ongoing rival that isn't actually an enemy.

Plus he was kinda sexy. *shrug* Thoughts, opinions?

 

[kkt]

I agree, he was very emotional for a Vulcan. Even holding onto the bar fight incident for years afterwards is uncharacteristic for a Vulcan. Different personalities, I guess.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I'm not a fan of the character. The character is probably worse at logic than any other Vulcan we ever met.

Sisko should be like "Yeah you can have your baseball trophy, us lowly humans will be out here SAVING THE QUADRANT."

 

[Timo]

I gather imperfect Vulcans may make for better starship captains than perfect ones. A little bit of difficulty in repressing the emotions gives you the Kirk edge... Especially if you don't have hysterically emotional second-in-commands like McCoy on your side.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kkt]

When was McCoy second-in-command?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When Solok was going on about how emotional humans are, Sisko should have just said "Yeah, but we GET to be emotional. You don't."

 

[Timo]

Eeevill...

When was McCoy second-in-command?

Functionally, throughout TOS and TAS - Spock barely got a word in edgewise...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hahawaitwhat]

When Solok was going on about how emotional humans are, Sisko should have just said "Yeah, but we GET to be emotional. You don't."

Yeah, I never quite understood what sense there is in a Vulcan talking up how logical they are in a pseudo-bragging way like Solok. It's like... yeah, but that's because when a Vulcan is emotional they tend to be a nutcase. Humans can handle emotions...

I'm not a fan of the character. The character is probably worse at logic than any other Vulcan we ever met.

Sisko should be like "Yeah you can have your baseball trophy, us lowly humans will be out here SAVING THE QUADRANT."

In Solok's defense, he had been fighting in the war for 6 months. I think the lack of logic when it comes to his rivalry with Sisko is what makes Solok an interesting character. I think there was supposed to be an implied history of Solok being taunted by humans when he makes that comment about not engaging in human taunting while his crew watches Sisko burn him. Maybe I'm reading way too much into it... digging into super minor characters is my forte, haha.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The very idea that a Vulcan would seek to prove Vulcan superiority by beating them at sports is just too silly to me. By that logic, physical strength and coordination is the sole measure of superiority in which case androids are the master race.

Sisko’s response to Solok should be, “I’ll play you in baseball if you want but I find performance at Earth sports as a measure of species superiority to be highly illogical.”

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The concept of "Vulcan superiority" is, in itself, a contradiction in terms, and is therefore illogical.

Sure, Vulcans on the average might be stronger than humans, they might have greater mental capacity, yadda yadda. But that does not make them superior, just different. Solok's attitude is just due to flat-out racism, it would seem.

Then again, we never see Solok interact with any humans other than Sisko. This whole thing may just be a personal grudge - meaning, something Solok likes to tease Sisko about, but if Solok spoke to or mingled with any OTHER humans, he might not act that way.

Although there is that pesky detail about the T'Kumbra's all-Vulcan crew...

 

[Kor]

The very idea that a Vulcan would seek to prove Vulcan superiority by beating them at sports is just too silly to me. By that logic, physical strength and coordination is the sole measure of superiority in which case androids are the master race.

Sisko’s response to Solok should be, “I’ll play you in baseball if you want but I find performance at Earth sports as a measure of species superiority to be highly illogical.”

Skill and strategy are very important, not just strength and coordination.

Kor

 

[Hahawaitwhat]

The very idea that a Vulcan would seek to prove Vulcan superiority by beating them at sports is just too silly to me. By that logic, physical strength and coordination is the sole measure of superiority in which case androids are the master race.

Sisko’s response to Solok should be, “I’ll play you in baseball if you want but I find performance at Earth sports as a measure of species superiority to be highly illogical.”

Weeeeeell, he also beat him at wrestling. LOL.

 

[Markonian]

The concept of "Vulcan superiority" is, in itself, a contradiction in terms, and is therefore illogical.

Sure, Vulcans on the average might be stronger than humans, they might have greater mental capacity, yadda yadda. But that does not make them superior, just different. Solok's attitude is just due to flat-out racism, it would seem.

Aren’t improved/better abilities the definition of superior? Agreed, it’s racist to Earthers, but Vulcans with their +sup strength, +sup hearing, +sup mental capacity and control +telepathy are a superior race.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The use of the term "superior" implies "better".

It implies that because Vulcans as a whole may possess greater strength and/or brain capacity, that it somehow makes them more evolved lifeforms, more worthy of existence than humans are. And that is a patently racist connotation.

And Solok's attitude did not help, either. He didn't simply point out those differences, he gloated about them. He reveled in them. He enjoyed rubbing Sisko's face in it.

 

[Kor]

Aren’t improved/better abilities the definition of superior? Agreed, it’s racist to Earthers, but Vulcans with their +sup strength, +sup hearing, +sup mental capacity and control +telepathy are a superior race.

But do those things automatically give them greater superiority in ethics, morals, personal character, creativity and imagination, etc.?

Kor

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Aren’t improved/better abilities the definition of superior? Agreed, it’s racist to Earthers, but Vulcans with their +sup strength, +sup hearing, +sup mental capacity and control +telepathy are a superior race.

That's a dangerous line of thinking that has been heavily employed in the real world by some awful people.

First off, superior strength is the only one of those beyond debate. Superior intelligence is not proven, and it's only even argued in the case of pure logical and mathematical intelligence. In areas of creativity and flexibility humans come out ahead, and philosophically there's lots of of arguments on both sides.

Second, Vulcans only come out ahead by strictly Vulcan values. How many of the great scientific advancements, between the first time we meet the Vulcans and the 24th century, come from Vulcans? Hell, there are more known scientific advancements from Ferengi in the 24th century than Vulcans. Can you honestly remove emotional thinking from moral considerations?

Third, even if Vulcans were superior in all those areas, would it really mean they are superior? Besides the fact you're talking about statistical averages and not strictly applied to all individuals, you can't take that position without arguing against 'All men are created equal'. And if you argue against that you are arguing that there can indeed be a 'Master race' inherently superior to other races.

 

[MacLeod]

The use of the term "superior" implies "better".

It implies that because Vulcans as a whole may possess greater strength and/or brain capacity, that it somehow makes them more evolved lifeforms, more worthy of existence than humans are. And that is a patently racist connotation.

And Solok's attitude did not help, either. He didn't simply point out those differences, he gloated about them. He reveled in them. He enjoyed rubbing Sisko's face in it.

How very un Vulcan like surely that would be an emotional response.

But to draw on your point, Take our own species for example some are more intelligent , some are stronger etc.. does that make them superior overall?

Isn't the under tone that Solok thinks Humans are inferior to Vulcans rather than equals instead of accepting the strengths and weaknesses that each race has.

 

[kkt]

Eeevill...



Functionally, throughout TOS and TAS - Spock barely got a word in edgewise...

Timo Saloniemi

Spock only got one word: the last one.

 

[Hahawaitwhat]

Aren’t improved/better abilities the definition of superior? Agreed, it’s racist to Earthers, but Vulcans with their +sup strength, +sup hearing, +sup mental capacity and control +telepathy are a superior race.

I actually get what you're saying. I was under the impression Roddenberry intentionally made Vulcans the 'ideal' race. That was second-hand information that was told to me, though, so maybe I'm incorrect. It certainly seems like in many, many situations a Vulcan would have the upperhand.

But do those things automatically give them greater superiority in ethics, morals, personal character, creativity and imagination, etc.?

Kor

I see your point, too, though because without emotion things like music, fictional literature, etc just don't have the same impact. The problem is... if you made that point to a Vulcan they'd probably tell you those things aren't worth-while ventures when it comes to logic.

Also, I'm now imagining Sisko challenging Solok to a battle-of-the-bands. Ha.

 

[kkt]

I actually get what you're saying. I was under the impression Roddenberry intentionally made Vulcans the 'ideal' race. That was second-hand information that was told to me, though, so maybe I'm incorrect. It certainly seems like in many, many situations a Vulcan would have the upperhand.



I see your point, too, though because without emotion things like music, fictional literature, etc just don't have the same impact. The problem is... if you made that point to a Vulcan they'd probably tell you those things aren't worth-while ventures when it comes to logic.

Also, I'm now imagining Sisko challenging Solok to a battle-of-the-bands. Ha.

Maybe Roddenberry was just making sure no one looked on Vulcans as inferior, cute dwarfs/elves. The psychic powers didn't come along until partway through TOS when the plot needed them.