Federation Founders

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

^@Tenacity earlier implied that the situation might have been known openly and the Feds just overlooked it because they wanted Ardana's zenite:

The planet was the only (?) source of zenite, that alone probably guaranteed admissions.

Why bother hiding anything at the time of admission?

And whether or not the specific provision from "Accession" was added later in response to this situation, it was clearly already against Federation principles. It's not like they were fine with this sort of systematic discrimination before and only changed their minds later.

And how could a planet be admitted to the Federation without ever being so much as visited by Federation representatives? Especially one that was the sole exporter of a precious commodity shipped all over the galaxy? Ardana had to have pulled a con job on the Feds, although it is possible there was some complicity in it by the Feds themselves.

-MMoM

 

[The Old Mixer]

My impression is that it wouldn't have been widely known, but rather swept under the rug by whatever Federation representatives were responsible for getting Ardana in. Thus the crew of the Enterprise were surprised to find the situation there as one that didn't live up to Federation standards.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And how could a planet be admitted to the Federation without ever being so much as visited by Federation representatives?

Negotiations to bring Ardana into the Federation could have been conducted over subspace.

Although I do like TOB&L's suggestion that if there were Federation representatives sent to Ardana, they might have intentionally concealed the truth in order to get the zenite. The Federation government as a whole might still not have known about it, because a few corrupt people hid the truth from them.

Thus, when the truth came out, the Federation amended the charter and instituted the outright ban on caste systems. Seems easy enough.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

^Yes, fair enough. I was really only taking exception to what I read as suggestion (not yours) that this would have been something openly accepted and condoned by the larger Federation community at any point, and wouldn't need to have been concealed in one manner or another—whether by the Planet Council itself, by corrupt UFP officials, or by conspiracy between the two—irrespective of whether that specific prohibition were present in the Charter yet.

I'm iffy on the idea of admittance ever being possible through negotiations strictly over subspace, sight unseen, without any ostensible effort being undertaken to independently verify the claims of a prospective member's planetary government. It doesn't exactly seem workable. I mean, the Vulcans and Tellarites and Andorians certainly didn't seem particularly willing to accept one another's word on their honor alone, even after they had all been members for a century! And I would think that with zenite being such a hot commodity, it would be difficult for Ardana to remain completely isolated and unobserved. But this alleged complicity of certain UFP representatives in the Planet Council's covering up of Ardana's troubles does sound plausible. As I said myself, it would be in line with the sort of shady dealings suggested in Insurrection. Heck, maybe Section 31 even had a hand in it!

-MMoM

 

[Tenacity]

And no, the Sentinels were not Troglytes

Why not? They obviously weren't leadership, but I'll concede that they could have been something different, perhaps a middle class above the Trogs lower class.

having assumed the Troglytes were treated equitably

The only assumption our heroes had is that the zenite would be waiting for them to be pick up, the only reason Kirk became involve at all in the planet's situation was the zenite.

then this wouldn't fit with Picard's comments in "Attached"

Prior to the appearance of the Distruptors, the Ardanans likely had a (admittedly unequal) stable planet society. It's this planetary society that would have been openly on display when Ardana joined with the federation.

Separately, Picard does at times come off as a starry-eyed dreamer. His claim that all previous additions to the federation were (in some fashion) "unified" could simply be another example of that. His vision of unified, and the federation council's definition of the same term, could be widely different.

 

[Tenacity]

although it is possible there was some complicity in it by the Feds themselves

Remember from the example of Journey to Babel that the federation council doesn't make the decision whether to admit a new member, the member worlds do. The member governments send delegates to a conference to decide on a admission. The delegates in Journey to Babel had independently positions when it came to that admission, why not when it came to Ardana too?

It would easy to see investigators from different member planets separately sending teams to Ardana to travel the planet, thoroughly studying the Ardanans and their government, economy, culture and society. Interview the citizens (including Troglytes) and reported back to their various governments.

It's unlikely there were any secrets.

it was clearly already against Federation principles

At the time of Ardana's admittance, what were the federation's principles?

Obviously those principles didn't keep Ardana out.

In order to be considered for membership at all, in addition to the zenite, Ardana would be a advanced, high technology, warp capable, society. They had the technology to build and maintain the anti-gravity cloud city. I could imagine they were exporting zenite to interstellar markets prior to the federation even being founded.

Currently in America miners makeup less than 0.03% of the population, and less than 1% for farmers. As a high technology society, those numbers could be lower for the Ardanans.

Droxine says directly that those were two of the Troglyte's occupations. If that were the Troglytes only occupations, then the vast majority of Ardanan citizens aren't Troglytes.

In any society, there are undesirable jobs, whether it's mining zenite or scrubbing plasma conduits, or modern day cleaning toilets. And there are people who for their own reasons do these jobs.

The miners on Ardana apparent are striking for better working conditions, good for them. That doesn't mean that they're part of a caste system. Or that Ardana couldn't have been admitted into the federation with full knowledge of their existence.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

KIRK: You said you were going to question Vanna, not torture her.
PLASUS: She's stubborn, and as you yourself pointed out, Captain, the search for your zenite consignment must be short.
KIRK: Surely there are better methods than this.
PLASUS: Physical discomfort is extremely persuasive, Captain.
KIRK: Yes, but I won't stand by while someone is tortured!
PLASUS: Is it preferable to spare Vanna and allow an entire planet to be destroyed?
SPOCK: Violence in reality is quite different from theory, is it not, Madam?
DROXINE: But what else can they understand, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: All the little things you and I understand and expect from life, such as equality, kindness, justice.
PLASUS: Troglytes are not like Stratos-dwellers, Mister Spock. They're a conglomerate of inferior species. The abstract concepts of an intellectual society are beyond their comprehension.
KIRK: The abstract concepts of loyalty and leadership seem clear to Vanna.
PLASUS: A few Troglytes are brought here as retainers. Vanna was one of them, as are the Sentinels. They've received more training than the others.
KIRK: But obviously no more consideration.
PLASUS: I fail to see the purpose of this continued criticism.
KIRK: The only way you'll use that device again is on one of us!
PLASUS: An imposing display of primitive gallantry, gentlemen. You realize, of course, that the Sentinels could remove you?
KIRK: Of course, but Starfleet Command won't take kindly to having either rays or physical force used against one of its command personnel, Mister Advisor.
PLASUS: Why are you so concerned with this Disrupter's well-being?
KIRK: Beyond plain humanitarianism, my orders are to get that zenite.
PLASUS: Then stop interfering, and I'll get it for you.
KIRK: You won't get it through torture!
PLASUS: We will get it for you, and in our own way! Remove the prisoner to confinement quarters. You will return to your ship at once, or I shall contact your Starfleet Command myself, and report your interference with this planet's government.

Why not? They obviously weren't leadership, but I'll concede that they could have been something different

First of all, you were correct that the Sentinels were Troglytes as well, after re-checking I now see that Plasus does mention this.

He also mentions that they and the other "retainers" were "brought" there, as if arbitrarily. And their travel to and from the city was restricted by issued "transport card" as well. So I'm not seeing where the 'option' you mentioned comes in. (Not that I'd expect many would turn down the opportunity under the circumstances, but then, neither would Bajoran "comfort women" during the Cardassian Occupation!)

The only assumption our heroes had is that the zenite would be waiting for them to be pick up, the only reason Kirk became involve at all in the planet's situation was the zenite.

It was explicitly said that the Planet Council had "assured" them the Troglytes had "agreed to" provide the zenite, and it was assumed when it wasn't there that they had "changed their minds," implying an assumption of freedom to do so. They also assumed that the Troglytes were "allowed to share the advantages" their labor provided, and that they were "surely not denied" the "equality, kindness, justice," education, etc., that were to be "expected" from "a society that prides itself in enlightenment" (as they affirmatively believed Ardana to be at the outset) and which they considered it "unthinkable in an evolved culture" to deprive anyone of.

And yes, zenite was always the immediate concern and the initial purpose of their visit, but "plain humanitarianism" did not go without mention, and even in spite of the urgency of the situation, Kirk seemed unwilling to accept zenite delivered under torture. (Although, it would have been interesting to see whether he'd have actually refused it, should events have ultimately come to that. But whether or not such principles would have been betrayed out of expedience in the end, they clearly weren't absent from mind.)

Remember from the example of Journey to Babel that the federation council doesn't make the decision whether to admit a new member, the member worlds do. The member governments send delegates to a conference to decide on a admission. The delegates in Journey to Babel had independently positions when it came to that admission, why not when it came to Ardana too?

It would easy to see investigators from different member planets separately sending teams to Ardana to travel the planet, thoroughly studying the Ardanans and their government, economy, culture and society. Interview the citizens (including Troglytes) and reported back to their various governments.

It's unlikely there were any secrets.At the time of Ardana's admittance, what were the federation's principles?

Obviously those principles didn't keep Ardana out.

The Federation Council itself is made up of representatives from the member worlds, as seen in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. And by the same story you cite, "Journey To Babel" (TOS), at least one principle in play is that "under Federation law, [a member] can be protected, and its wealth administered for the benefit of its people." This is precisely the prospect that threatened the Tellarites' implied desire to continue exploiting Coridan, and precisely the quality that Kirk and Spock find lacking in Ardana's leadership. I would think the very point of member worlds retaining their own largely-autonomous governance is likely to further these purposes—i.e. one member can't individually pillage another's resources for their own benefit, nor gang up with others in the Council and simply have them confiscated for redistribution, with Starfleet being sent out to bully them into surrender, as Vanna initially believed Kirk was there to do—but Ardana (and/or corrupt Federation influences) instead perverted and thwarted them.

In any society, there are undesirable jobs, whether it's mining zenite or scrubbing plasma conduits, or modern day cleaning toilets. And there are people who for their own reasons do these jobs.

One's choice of jobs being pre-determined or restricted based on a ruling segment of society's concepts and constructs of race is the exact opposite of "for one's own reasons."

-MMoM

 

[Tenacity]

The Federation Council itself is made up of representatives from the member worlds

Sarek specifically states that he's acting on the instructions of the Vulcan government, nothing was said about the delegates to Babel being from the federation council.

I am making a assumption that Ardana is the technological equivalent of the other federation planets of the day, has a population in the billions, and has a complex varied society.

No, we don't see all of that. Star Trek simplifies thing in order to tell a story. I seriously doubt the small handful of people we see during the episode represented everyone on the planet. Troglytes are part of that society, but they and the leadership aren't all there is.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Sarek specifically states that he's acting on the instructions of the Vulcan government, nothing was said about the delegates to Babel being from the federation council.

There are said to be 114 delegates traveling to the Babel Conference aboard the Enterprise, of whom only 32 are ambassadors. Sarek says he will convey instructions from his government at the proper time "in council chambers on Babel" where a vote on Coridan's petition for admission will be taken. It's entirely possible that the "council meeting" to take place there is of the Federation Council itself (who says they only ever meet on Earth?), and/or that the delegation has been specially constituted and/or selected through that body to evaluate the validity of the petition and represent specific concerns from individual member governments in conference beforehand, and/or that any conclusion reached there will still have to be taken back to Earth and further ratified by it, much as any recommendation from Picard and Riker with regard to Kesprytt III would have to be.

-MMoM

 

[Timo]

Regarding Ardana, the assumption that its local practices would be against UFP principles is a weakly founded one. After all, even though Kirk appears to dislike them personally, he doesn't lift a finger to bring about UFP sanctions. Indeed, as he departs, there is no suggestion that Ardana's membership would be in jeopardy: Plasus shouts, red in the face, that no UFP interference whatsoever will be tolerated by Ardana, and Kirk is okay with that.

There's an obvious double reason for Kirk to walk away. He has armed the revolutionaries with IQ boosters, and that suffices for him personally. He's also a persona non grata on Ardana now, so it's off his hands and Starfleet or the UFP would send different people to mop up. But there's no indication that a mopup would or even could take place, regardless of whether Kirk made a stand or not.

Do UPF policies really change later on? Sisko speaks against "caste-based discrimination", giving three unclear terms already:

1) What is a caste, and do biologically distinct population groups count (i.e. are genders castes, say)?
2) When is discrimination based on caste?
3) What is discrimination?

An unrepenting Ardana might walk free on all three points for all we know. After all, our benchmark for #1 from the Bajoran case is a biologically and intellectually homogeneous population divided along truly arbitrary lines, that for #2 a clear-cut situation where discrimination stems exclusively from caste rather than things like suitability for a line of work, and that for #3 a total ban on changing professions whereas Droxine was able to slum at will and even the smartest Disruptors probably just couldn't have held cloudside jobs with any sort of success.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

If forced into a choice of changing their social order (with the current people at the top) and being expelled from the federation owing to not changing, I thnk Ardana's leadership would pick leaving the federation. They would still have the off-world trade in zenite and they could build separate (from the federation) connections.

If other interstellar groupings similar to the federations exist, Ardana could just shop around for a better fit.

 

[Tenacity]

Indeed, as he departs, there is no suggestion that Ardana's membership would be in jeopardy

Kirk:
“The highest of all our laws states that your world is yours and will always remain yours."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If forced into a choice of changing their social order (with the current people at the top) and being expelled from the federation owing to not changing, I thnk Ardana's leadership would pick leaving the federation. They would still have the off-world trade in zenite and they could build separate (from the federation) connections.

If other interstellar groupings similar to the federations exist, Ardana could just shop around for a better fit.

But those other groupings are not anywhere near as likely to give the Ardanans as much freedom as the Federation has. If Ardana falls in with the Klingons or Romulans, they'd become a slave world in short order.

 

[Tenacity]

"If other interstellar groupings similar to the federations exist ..."

I wasn't suggesting either the Klingons or the Romulans.

 

[Timo]

There's a bit of a conflict of evidence on the issue of what Ardana would have to offer to other potential allies. Is it the sole producer of zenite in known space or not?

On one hand, Kirk says "...planet Ardana, where the only source of zenite exists". On the other, zenite is supposedly a well-known substance, "shipped all over the galaxy" to fight botanical plagues - but the Ardanans seem to treat Kirk's request for a barrelful as a unique thing, having none of the stuff in stock, requiring a lecture from Spock on what it is going to be used for, indeed (for the part of Vanna, a supposed specialist in zenite extraction) expressing disbelief at there being an emergency demand for the material even when emergencies are its only known use.

The conflict of data would evaporate if Ardana were merely the only source of zenite that could rescue poor Merak II, while other sources elsewhere exist in quantity and produce in bulk but are too far away to be of use. But if Ardana only produces the stuff as a hobby project (and mostly has the Troglytes mine other substances and "till the soil" as stated) its bargaining position is weakened...

It's not as if the episode itself would suggest that Ardana was accepted as a Federation member only because of utilitarian concerns, or that it would enjoy special protection from critique. But the episode doesn't contradict such speculation, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

It's not as if the episode itself would suggest that Ardana was accepted as a Federation member only because of utilitarian concerns

Why the average member is admitted has never been gone into.

Bajor was initially considered (I think) primarily to piss off the Cardassians, and have a member/base near Cardassia.

Ardana had zenite.

Coridan of course had abundant dilithium crystals.

In order to buy into the federation and all the goodies that assumibly come with it, you have to be bring something to the deal. Natural resources, the location of your star system, existing diplomatic and trade connections you would bring to the federation, a sizeable fleet of your own perhaps.

Vulcan and Andor both had powerful military starships, certainly powerful enough to confront each other

 

[Timo]

Or then nothing. The Borg ask nothing of the folks they assimilate, either: contributing is a nice extra, but the motivations may be purely altruistic. At least on the surface, that is, and the surface could not be maintained unless the Collective and the UFP occasionally did assimilate victims who truly have nothing at all to offer.

Beyond appearances, the UFP could assimilate totally worthless cultures for a number of utilitarian reasons:

1) Fill in gaps in the real estate possessed by the Feds
2) Bolster numbers, possibly for sheer propagana reasons
3) Introduce markets for goods
4) Stop competing empires from expanding there
5) Play games of interior politics
etc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

The Borg ask nothing of the folks they assimilate, either

Other than forcing them to be slaves.

In two centuries, the federation was "only" a hundred and fifty planets. Spread over a fair sized piece of the galaxy, a galaxy (in-universe) where planets with intelligent life and high tech civilizations are common. So why the low membership count?

Two (of many?) possibilities would be it's hard to get in, or a large number of civilizations simply don't want to be members.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

In context of an unrelated discussion, I was just recalling a scene in "The Forge" (ENT) where Forrest is seeking to reassure Soval with respect to Starfleet's intentions in its overtures toward closer coordination and more open exchange with the Vulcan High Command, and upon reviewing the dialogue realized that its wording certainly seems to allow for—and could perhaps even be taken to support—an interpretation whereby in uniting for the purpose of working in common cause, the nations of Earth did not necessarily cease to exist altogether...

SOVAL: We had our wars, Admiral, just as humans did. Our planet was devastated, our civilization nearly destroyed. Logic saved us. But it took almost fifteen hundred years for us to rebuild our world and travel to the stars. You humans did the same in less than a century. There are those on the High Command who wonder what humans would achieve in the century to come, and they don't like the answer.
FORREST: We're not the Klingons. We only want to be your partners. To do what the nations of Earth have learned to do. To work together in common cause.
SOVAL: Unfortunately, the future of relations between our worlds is not mine to control.​

Note the use of the present perfect tense ("have learned") rather than simple past. And in making the comparison he seems to imply an ongoing partnership between still-distinct entities on more or less equal footing rather than a total dissolution and absorption of one into another.

Of course, I suppose it's possible he could have meant "nations" in the sense of peoples rather than governments, and I'm sure that it could probably be parsed in other ways, too. It doesn't definitively settle anything, but it's further food for thought on the matter.

-MMoM

P.S.
I'm simultaneously pleased and alarmed to find this thread still fair game. I don't know about anyone else, but to me it feels like it's been a lot longer than seven months! And I've scarcely even glanced through General Trek in all this time...