Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[fireproof78]

Seven was one of the most interesting characters of Trek's later TV-existence, after DS9 ended. Jeri Ryan managed to make her so much more than just the eye-candy she was supposed to be. I don't agree that her costume took anything away from the character.

She certainly had the most growth, but to the casual viewer her costume would not speak to that.

You can disagree all you want and that's fine. I certainly can appreciate her as a character but that costume stood out to me and my friends-pure and simple.

YMMV and all that.

 

[oberth]

She certainly had the most growth, but to the casual viewer her costume would not speak to that.

You can disagree all you want and that's fine. I certainly can appreciate her as a character but that costume stood out to me and my friends-pure and simple.

YMMV and all that.

a couple of nerdy teens who pretented to watch the show for the technical aspects

... wait, that was a technical aspect

 

[cooleddie74]

I wish T'Pol hadn't worn catsuits for all four years of her series but at least the Season 3 and 4 jumpsuits were more like a uniform and once she received her honorary commission in the Earth Starfleet she got to wear rank squares on her collar. It never completely took away the eye candy aspect of her costume but at least they improved her outfit and fixed her makeup.

 

[Vger23]

Sexiest moment in Trek history

I too disagree about Janeway. I don't think she was great, but "least interesting Star Trek lead" goes to Archer by a mile imo.

edit: Pre-Discovery, that is.

I don't agree. Archer had flaws, was finding his way in a new role, and had a compelling backstory.

Janeway was "Picard without the gravitas" who occasionally (and very self-consciously) tried to be a cowboy like Kirk. Not at all compelling.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Seven was one of the most interesting characters of Trek's later TV-existence, after DS9 ended. Jeri Ryan managed to make her so much more than just the eye-candy she was supposed to be. I don't agree that her costume took anything away from the character.

She was walking around the entire show in a skin-tight catsuit with a corset and enlarged breast cups...

Honestly, yes, I think the outfit took a few things away from her character and from women in leading roles in general. Kate Mulgrew apparently felt the same way, hence the immense tension on the set.

Of course, the fact that Jeri Ryan was literally sleeping with Brannon Braga probably had more to do with her character being better developed than any conscious choice by the writers. It's amazing the kind of opportunities that fall into your lap when you're dating the boss.

 

[Refuge]

I think the actresses were all talented enough to rise above that obvious double-standard when it came to the costumes. It's so obvious and unnecessary how Major Kira's uniform changed from the standard two-part ensemble, with the slightly too tight trousers for the women and men, to a very tight onsie after a few episodes.

Honestly I preferred the female characters from past shows. I think Voyager represents diversity and speaks more for female representation than Discovery. Discovery is killing and devaluing its female characters in an episode to episode basis. Seven of Nine in skin tight catsuit and all got to be a character of worth on a ship with woman Captain who wasn't killed off to make way for a male lead.

 

[cooleddie74]

Discovery's female characters suffer because of writing, not because of their uniforms and other clothing. Sonequa Martin-Green is a talented actress who could be turning in a better performance if the writers gave Michael Burnham better material than just being the smug Starfleet mutineer who was partially raised on Vulcan and has to object to or override the decisions made by her crewmates.

 

[Satron]

She was walking around the entire show in a skin-tight catsuit with a corset and enlarged breast cups...

Honestly, yes, I think the outfit took a few things away from her character and from women in leading roles in general. Kate Mulgrew apparently felt the same way, hence the immense tension on the set.

I disagree. This thinking only feeds the view that sexy women are nothing but retarded bimbos there to be drooled over by horny teenage boys.
I think Ryan gave us with Seven a sexy woman that was complex and intelligent and could be drooled over by horny teenage boys.

Still, her outfit was silly.

Of course, the fact that Jeri Ryan was literally sleeping with Brannon Braga probably had more to do with her character being better developed than any conscious choice by the writers. It's amazing the kind of opportunities that fall into your lap when you're dating the boss.

Sex. The fuel Hollywood is run on.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

I'm gonna say that I actually like when sci-fi crosses with fetishism and stuff. Latex everywhere in The Matrix. Farscape's many fetish fuel elements. Intendent Kira. Seven's catsuit is relatively minor fan service compared to Nana Visitor's vinyl outfit in the mirror universe, and the dominatrix persona.

I'm aware that there are sex positive and sex negative strains in feminism. Well, in some cultures the body and what it does is not a sin, as it was in some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions, its a natural and healthy celebration of life - and the appreciation of beauty does not have to become the elitism of bullying. I think it's illogical to resent anything natural to our species.

 

[jaime]

I'm gonna say that I actually like when sci-fi crosses with fetishism and stuff. Latex everywhere in The Matrix. Farscape's many fetish fuel elements. Intendent Kira. Seven's catsuit is relatively minor fan service compared to Nana Visitor's vinyl outfit in the mirror universe, and the dominatrix persona.

I'm aware that there are sex positive and sex negative strains in feminism. Well, in some cultures the body and what it does is not a sin, as it was in some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions, its a natural and healthy celebration of life - and the appreciation of beauty does not have to become the elitism of bullying. I think it's illogical to resent anything natural to our species.

Interesting points. Though LeXX is probably way out on the fetish/sci-fi crossover curve, it’s def a thing, look at those old sixties stills of Shatner in Basically bondage vests. The mind boggles.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

I think sci-fi, like with how it hid social commentary in plain sight, has a reputation for cutting edge sexuality. The amount of futuristic planets and so on where people wear artificial rubber fabrics, or where both genders are sexually aggressive without reproach or judgement (Klingons), or where gender roles are different, or where people's senses are altered or enhanced by their perceptions, psychology, mental connection with their partner, and attitude (telepathic sex in Babylon 5, etc).

Wonder Woman was famous for having heavy S&M themes in it's early history, before the comics community was subjected to the policing and censorship of the Silver Age. I feel like Gene Roddenberry was probably someone who also didn't see human sexuality as a sin, and was unsatisfied with the tardiness of society in catching up with his stance.

So, Seven of Nine's catsuit seems like a really mundane thing for people to fixate on, to be honest. We already had people literally entering each other's minds in sex, or going into a hormone-induced mating frenzy, and Seven's obvious beauty was more played for laughs, with Harry Kim's crush on her, if anything. As others have said Jeri Ryan owned that role in terms of acting prowess; it was complex and interesting, and Voyager was made far better by having this hilariously blunt, literal, rational, stubborn, aggressive, quirky, and instantly likeable character.

 

[oberth]

I think sci-fi, like with how it hid social commentary in plain sight, has a reputation for cutting edge sexuality. The amount of futuristic planets and so on where people wear artificial rubber fabrics, or where both genders are sexually aggressive without reproach or judgement (Klingons), or where gender roles are different, or where people's senses are altered or enhanced by their perceptions, psychology, mental connection with their partner, and attitude (telepathic sex in Babylon 5, etc).

Wonder Woman was famous for having heavy S&M themes in it's early history, before the comics community was subjected to the policing and censorship of the Silver Age. I feel like Gene Roddenberry was probably someone who also didn't see human sexuality as a sin, and was unsatisfied with the tardiness of society in catching up with his stance.

So, Seven of Nine's catsuit seems like a really mundane thing for people to fixate on, to be honest. We already had people literally entering each other's minds in sex, or going into a hormone-induced mating frenzy, and Seven's obvious beauty was more played for laughs, with Harry Kim's crush on her, if anything. As others have said Jeri Ryan owned that role in terms of acting prowess; it was complex and interesting, and Voyager was made far better by having this hilariously blunt, literal, rational, stubborn, aggressive, quirky, and instantly likeable character.

all true, but starfleet is (at least in that sense) a military organisation. so ...

1. why should someone like lt com troy wear anything but regulation?
   
2. why should someone like 7/9 wear anything but regulation without rank insignia (or may be some kind of orange jumpsuit until they trust her)? her attire has no pockets (ever seen a borg with a handbag?)
   
3. why should someone like subcom t'pol wear anything but regulation without rank insignia or a vulcan uniform without rank insignia (because she's used to it)?
4. why should anyone in such a structure come up with attire that's in any way deemed sexist (tos: miniskirts) - military organisation usually try to have unisex attire to not be accused of being sexist. the us navy forces no woman to wear a skirt - just silly headgear and even more silly 'ties' (and these reveal nothing)

if none of these points are explained onscreen (like troy's suit are typically betzoid and their females only join starfleet if...) they are indeed there to cater to a male audience (which they do anyway). i have no problem if they do that, they always done that in hollywood and elsewhere, but they should give a reason or face the heat.

i'm totally fine with mirror-kiera, as this simply is her persona

actually tos-miniskirts are a lot better than those jumpsuits as they were kinda 'standard fashion' when tos was filmed.

... btw, ent-uniforms are the only ones that make any sense (lots of pockets)

 

[Grendelsbayne]

For the record, it's easy to find plenty of incidetal moments and scenes that are worse than the uniform issue, but there is an important difference between a character having an unfortunate moment now and then and one being presented poorly in every episode. And even if there weren't, the one doesn't excuse the other.

 

[jaime]

all true, but starfleet is (at least in that sense) a military organisation. so ...

1. why should someone like lt com troy wear anything but regulation?
   
2. why should someone like 7/9 wear anything but regulation without rank insignia (or may be some kind of orange jumpsuit until they trust her)? her attire has no pockets (ever seen a borg with a handbag?)
   
3. why should someone like subcom t'pol wear anything but regulation without rank insignia or a vulcan uniform without rank insignia (because she's used to it)?
4. why should anyone in such a structure come up with attire that's in any way deemed sexist (tos: miniskirts) - military organisation usually try to have unisex attire to not be accused of being sexist. the us navy forces no woman to wear a skirt - just silly headgear and even more silly 'ties' (and these reveal nothing)

if none of these points are explained onscreen (like troy's suit are typically betzoid and their females only join starfleet if...) they are indeed there to cater to a male audience (which they do anyway). i have no problem if they do that, they always done that in hollywood and elsewhere, but they should give a reason or face the heat.

i'm totally fine with mirror-kiera, as this simply is her persona

actually tos-miniskirts are a lot better than those jumpsuits as they were kinda 'standard fashion' when tos was filmed.

... btw, ent-uniforms are the only ones that make any sense (lots of pockets)

Sevens was some invention of the Doctors, some kind of thing to do with her Borg skin etc (yes, it’s a handwave for the outfit, but it’s how they explain it on screen.) miniskirts were not seen as sexist at the time...quite the opposite, they were quite a feminist statement for a while. Even in the eighties, when TNG tried for unisex miniskirts, miniskirts weren’t really a sexist thing...there is a difference between ‘sexy’ and ‘sexist’ and tbh, a large part of that comes down to why a person is wearing a thing. A three piece suit and tie is sexist, if you are being told to wear it, and it only applies to your gender.
I see your points though, and largely agree, but I think things like Trois outfits have been discussed many times (maybe it’s a counsellor uniform, same way McCoy had those T-shirts for example, clearly an informal uniform variant. Etc etc.) and yes...the Ent ones sensibly hadpockets.
But TV shows are about design choices I guess...and I don’t think Trek is ‘sexist’ in that regard, serving eye candy across the board when it feels like it. I am sure someone will mention the nude Lwxana and Deanna in Ménage a Troi, and The still clothed Riker, but...that was sort of the point in that scene. That we laugh at the Ferengi for their backwards sexist ways. In Trek, the women can choose to wear what they want, covering as much or as little as they want...in universe. From a production perspective, it’s more than a little muddied for sure, but in universe, Uhuras miniskirt makes as much sense as Kiri’s command wrap.

 

[fireproof78]

So, Seven of Nine's catsuit seems like a really mundane thing for people to fixate on, to be honest.

It really isn't since she became one of two members who were not dressed in Starfleet uniforms, and the outfits made her stand out.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I disagree. This thinking only feeds the view that sexy women are nothing but retarded bimbos there to be drooled over by horny teenage boys...

Well, no, the OUTFIT itself CATERS to the view that sexy women are there to be drooled over by horny teenage boys. That was the specific reason the outfit was designed the way it was.

More importantly, Jeri Ryan was dealt a relatively good hand, having several feature episodes and given an opportunity to show off the character's dynamic personality, multiple talents and colorful background. If she'd gotten the same treatment as, say, Garret Wang, she'd be just another bimbo in a catsuit who never got promoted because she was totally replaceable.

And it COULD be argued that the reason she got the opportunities she did was because she was dating the show's producer. This makes it a moment of spectacular irony: Jerri Ryan got to play an interesting female character who managed to transcend tired sexist stereotypes... because she was fucking her boss.

Sex. The fuel Hollywood is run on.

Not sure how to comment on that in the aftermath of the Weinstein fiasco.

 

[jaime]

It really isn't since she became one of two members who were not dressed in Starfleet uniforms, and the outfits made her stand out.

I think that’s the thing...she’s one of the Delta Quadrant recruits. Basically, the argument ends up coming down to ‘should Neelix and Kes have Starfleet uniforms too’ whic has a bunch of reasons for why they didn’t. Yes it’s hand waves from theEMH on Sevens outfit, but in context..it all makes sense. I also do t remember more than a handful of civilian outfits from TNG era onwards that wasn’t either ridiculous tight and revealing, or billowed and revealing. Except on some of the over forty cast. Once you put Seven in civilian context, does she seem that out of place? Ishara Yar? Trois off duty wear? Wesley’s various outfits?

 

[fireproof78]

I think that’s the thing...she’s one of the Delta Quadrant recruits. Basically, the argument ends up coming down to ‘should Neelix and Kes have Starfleet uniforms too’ whic has a bunch of reasons for why they didn’t. Yes it’s hand waves from theEMH on Sevens outfit, but in context..it all makes sense. I also do t remember more than a handful of civilian outfits from TNG era onwards that wasn’t either ridiculous tight and revealing, or billowed and revealing. Except on some of the over forty cast. Once you put Seven in civilian context, does she seem that out of place? Ishara Yar? Trois off duty wear? Wesley’s various outfits?

In context of universe it almost works.

However, from a visual standpoint of a show's production it stands out like a sore thumb and definitely fits, as @Crazy Eddie noted, the marketing of a hot "babe" to horny teens. So, on the one hand, in universe there is some hand wave, but it never changes and that's annoying.

 

[Gul Sengosts]

I'm gonna say that I actually like when sci-fi crosses with fetishism and stuff. Latex everywhere in The Matrix. Farscape's many fetish fuel elements. Intendent Kira. Seven's catsuit is relatively minor fan service compared to Nana Visitor's vinyl outfit in the mirror universe, and the dominatrix persona.

Eurgh. Now you reminded me. I love Kira, but anti-Kira is terrible in every aspect. Idea, execution, writing, acting, outfit... God make it stop.

 

[jaime]

In context of universe it almost works.

However, from a visual standpoint of a show's production it stands out like a sore thumb and definitely fits, as @Crazy Eddie noted, the marketing of a hot "babe" to horny teens. So, on the one hand, in universe there is some hand wave, but it never changes and that's annoying.

Totally. It’s one of the main reasons I just stopped watching back then. Having come back and rewatched....I think sevens a great character etc. At the time I was very much ‘are they that desperate to keep me watching?’ And I vanished before she was even introduced.