OK thank you, well if there is anyone who could remember more of that from DS9 then please tell me.
Captains and responsibility?
- Thread starter TrekkieRiker
- Start date
Kirk left Khan in space seed. And paid for it in Wrath of Khan.
He was in a difficult position - not sure how starfleet would have used such a dangerous asset (look at into darkness as one way it could have gone), no doubt he ignored standing orders or procedures of what to do, so he didn't tell anyone apart from senior officers and a few lower deck staff (like Chekhov), but the consequences were address. He thought he was giving Khan a fair chance, something he wouldn't have oj a starfleet penal asteroid.
He was in a difficult position - not sure how starfleet would have used such a dangerous asset (look at into darkness as one way it could have gone), no doubt he ignored standing orders or procedures of what to do, so he didn't tell anyone apart from senior officers and a few lower deck staff (like Chekhov), but the consequences were address. He thought he was giving Khan a fair chance, something he wouldn't have oj a starfleet penal asteroid.
Because it was an issue the Federation couldn't solve for them. Why would Picard defend a government that flew in the face of Federation values?
They also promise help at the end of "The Apple"...
The Apple said:
Kirk just up and ditching people with no help has clearly been exaggerated over the years.
I'd say it was more than that. Leaving the Angosians to settle things themselves at a crucial moment was his way of using the Prime Directive as an excuse to passively interfere in the situation by forcing the people in charge to face the music. I always thought that intent was clear.
Not just the government, remember there was a civilian population, who would also have been at the mercy (or lack of) of the super solders. Did the populace have any direct say in the government's policy concerning the solders? Or even knew they existed.?
Picard's simplistic viewpoint and glib parting statement condemned how many to death, injuries, destruction.
Don't buy it, despite a undeserved reputation, Kirk was a professional officer who followed rules. Overtly violating orders once or twice doesn't mean violating orders was a constant and common trait .
I don't think he'd have ignored them, I think he'd have felt this was a situation where the written rules didn't apply. An attempt to take over a federation ship would be grounds for imprionsment in normal cases, but Khan was a special case
On Picard: "The Hunted" having come up recently on H&I, I should point out that it went out of its way to establish that the Angosian soldiers were programmed in such a way that they wouldn't harm people who weren't a threat to them...thus a civilian bloodbath was unlikely.
On Kirk: I was always under the impression that Kirk was exercising his legal authority as a starship captain in how he dealt with Khan...hence the formal trial scene. Only TWOK's questionable continuity raises the oft-speculated possibility that Kirk didn't report Khan to Starfleet. More likely, Starfleet classified the whole thing over Captain Terrell's level. They wouldn't want any old civilian or enemy with an FTL ship knowing what was on that particular planet.
On Kirk: I was always under the impression that Kirk was exercising his legal authority as a starship captain in how he dealt with Khan...hence the formal trial scene. Only TWOK's questionable continuity raises the oft-speculated possibility that Kirk didn't report Khan to Starfleet. More likely, Starfleet classified the whole thing over Captain Terrell's level. They wouldn't want any old civilian or enemy with an FTL ship knowing what was on that particular planet.
It was established, IIRC, that the Angosian soldiers would not attack anyone who wasn't a threat. They certainly wouldn't go after innocent civilians.
Didn't Danar and his ilk openly try to goad the Angosian leaders into firing on them? The soldiers couldn't attack first, they could only react defensively. If the leaders stood down and refused to fire, then there wouldn't be any violence.
And why should Picard take responsibility for that? He didn't have any. Whatever happened on Angosia was not his fault. It may be debatable exactly whose fault it was (we're supposed to believe that the government was TEH EVIL for what it did to the super soldiers, but remember, those soldiers were in fact volunteers, so that has to be taken into account as well), but it definitely wasn't the fault of Picard or anyone else on the Enterprise.
Didn't Danar and his ilk openly try to goad the Angosian leaders into firing on them? The soldiers couldn't attack first, they could only react defensively. If the leaders stood down and refused to fire, then there wouldn't be any violence.
And why should Picard take responsibility for that? He didn't have any. Whatever happened on Angosia was not his fault. It may be debatable exactly whose fault it was (we're supposed to believe that the government was TEH EVIL for what it did to the super soldiers, but remember, those soldiers were in fact volunteers, so that has to be taken into account as well), but it definitely wasn't the fault of Picard or anyone else on the Enterprise.
Granted, Starfleet/Picard didn't have anything to do with the creation of the super soldiers or with their resettlement on the penal colony. But the leader of the super soldiers was in Picard's custody when he escaped. Whether he liked it or not, at that point, Picard was involved in their internal affair.
If the Enterprise crew had been competent in their handling of the detention of the soldier, the crisis at the end wouldn't have happened. It was irresponsible for Picard to just take off like that when his actions led to the government being held at gunpoint. Abandoning people who had guns pointed at them wasn't like an honorable thing to do.
Also, Picard changed the status quo between the government and the super soldiers. Picard, inadvertently or not, interfered in the planet's affairs in a big way, and now people's lives were directly in danger, and just as importantly Picard gave the soldiers the upper hand.
It is possible that things might have ended up the same if the Enterprise had not gotten involved. But what happened did happen. And that is what we can be sure of. Picard's and the Enterprise's actions affected the chain of events.
It was irresponsible for Picard to leave the scene of the standoff that his actions contributed to happening. Picard should have tried to return things to the situation where no one had guns pointed at one another, then leave if he must.
The Angosians asked the Enterprise crew for help in capturing what they claimed to be a dangerous prisoner. That is not in dispute. But that doesn't make Picard responsible in any way for the conditions which led to Danar and his ilk becoming prisoners in the first place.
The standoff which occurred at the end of the episode was an inevitable result of the Angosians' treatment of their war veterans. Which Picard had nothing to do with.
The standoff which occurred at the end of the episode was an inevitable result of the Angosians' treatment of their war veterans. Which Picard had nothing to do with.
I agree that Picard had nothing to do with the Angosians' treatment of the veterans in the first place. And I am not saying that Picard should have been held responsible for resolving the big picture issue between the super soldiers and the government.
But Picard's/Enterprise's actions did lead to the standoff where the soldiers had guns pointed at the government. Picard had an obligation to return the two sides to a situation where no one was pointing guns at each other. It wasn't honorable nor responsible for Picard to abandon the government like that.
There would be a question of legitimacy to any deal that the government concluded with the super soldiers because it would have been done under duress.
But Picard's/Enterprise's actions did lead to the standoff where the soldiers had guns pointed at the government. Picard had an obligation to return the two sides to a situation where no one was pointing guns at each other. It wasn't honorable nor responsible for Picard to abandon the government like that.
There would be a question of legitimacy to any deal that the government concluded with the super soldiers because it would have been done under duress.
It was already well established that the soldiers would not attack anyone without provocation. So after Picard and crew beamed away, if any shooting happened after that, it would be the Angosian leaders' fault.
If the Angosian government laid down its weapons and refused to fire on the soldiers, then a healthy amount of negotiation COULD take place. And it seemed like this was very likely to occur - remember, Danar repeatedly tried to goad the politicians into firing, and they would not do so. So I think both sides would be able to enter into negotiations in good faith.
If the Angosian government laid down its weapons and refused to fire on the soldiers, then a healthy amount of negotiation COULD take place. And it seemed like this was very likely to occur - remember, Danar repeatedly tried to goad the politicians into firing, and they would not do so. So I think both sides would be able to enter into negotiations in good faith.
Then I guess it is somewhat easy to misunderstand this. TNG is my favorite because it contains lots of wisdom and deeper ideas, plus it makes a good example of what we should be like, wheras there are still some episodes like that in DS9, which I really appreciate, there is much in DS9 that tells us what not to do I guess. The Ferengi for example. To tell the truth, I hate them because of their greed and egoistic "philosophy" and IMO, they are featured way too much in DS9. Ds9 would have been the 2:nd series of my choice but because of this, TOS is the one I would enjoy as a good #2 after TNG. I wish my friends would understand this and why it's like that.
I understand what you are saying. But I still say Picard was irresponsible, for the reasons that I have already mentioned.
If someone had itchy, or nervous, fingers, that could have led to an inadvertent bloodbath. No good would have come out of that scenario.
Both sides had to lay down their arms, not just the government, in order to establish legitimacy. Picard could have acted as an intermediary and helped build trust between the two sides. I didn't get the impression the two sides trusted one another. One side was going to negotiate at the gunpoint of the other.
Besides Picard had leverage that he could have used. He could have told the government that the Feds will reject the planet's application for membership if the issue is not resolved to the satisfaction of both sides.
I always liked that ending. Thought it was a creative use of the Prime Directive.
So if the leadership offered no aggression, while at the same time not giving the soldiers a damned thing, the leadership would be completely safe and the status quo regarding social or political matters would be maintained.
If the leadership fully realized the power they had over the soldiers.
Neat trick.
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