I took that line to be they wouldn't try to take prisoners, not that they were incapable of doing so.
Policy.
Federation Founders
- Thread starter Bry_Sinclair
- Start date
Policy.
Hmm. Spock first describes the technology of the old war, and then says "which allowed no quarter, no captives". It's difficult to see what else the "which" would be referring to but the technology, and what else the "allowed" could mean but the technology dictating the policy.
The basic idea is suspect, too: why would the good guys deliberately choose a cruel policy if they weren't forced to? Not taking prisoners is presented as synonymous with the no mercy bit.
Timo Saloniemi
The basic idea is suspect, too: why would the good guys deliberately choose a cruel policy if they weren't forced to? Not taking prisoners is presented as synonymous with the no mercy bit.
Timo Saloniemi
Ignoring the grammar, in which the "which" points to the things listed after the "with", Spock nevertheless feels the need to ramble about technology, which ought to give it some significance. And it's all about something inanimate "allowing", not people making decisions.
It's problematic either way. If people are making decisions about not preserving Romulan bodies, why would humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and so forth all make the same decisions? If people are forced to skip observing Romulans because of technological shortcomings, why do humans, Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites suffer from the same shortcomings despite having different tech? It's almost as if there only was a single combatant per side, be it a species or an already solidified and homogenized alliance (but the line about a separate bunch known as "allies" is in conflict with that).
Timo Saloniemi
It's problematic either way. If people are making decisions about not preserving Romulan bodies, why would humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and so forth all make the same decisions? If people are forced to skip observing Romulans because of technological shortcomings, why do humans, Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites suffer from the same shortcomings despite having different tech? It's almost as if there only was a single combatant per side, be it a species or an already solidified and homogenized alliance (but the line about a separate bunch known as "allies" is in conflict with that).
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps when the Federation was first formed Mars was still considered merely a colony world of Earth and didn't have the population or infrastructure to really be considered a major power.
Kind of like on Babylon-5.
Wouldn't be surprising, becasue the United Earth was formed only a few years prior in the 2150s. Though I personally think it was also formed prior to 2161.
For whatever it's worth, the ENT novel The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing established that the War of Martian Independence began in 2105 with the Gundersdottir's Dome Rebellion, leading to the establishment of the independent, sovereign state known as the Confederated Martian Colonies. The CMC was never very powerful, however, and was overshadowed by Earth; in the 2150s, it was often known as the "cosmic Canada."
Meanwhile, the road to United Earth was more complicated; Section 31: Control establishes that a would-be planetary state called the United Earth Republic was established in 2113, but failed to get enough existing nation-states to join, and it was defunct within ten years. A second attempt at creating a planetary state, this time simply called United Earth, was more successful, with most states signing the Traité d'Unification in Paris in 2130 and agreeing to surrender their sovereignty to U.E (established in the novel Articles of the Federation); but there were three major holdouts (China, the United States, and Australia), the last of whom joined United Earth in 2150. U.E. celebrated its first Unification Day on 14 July 2150 after the last holdout joined (established in Section 31: Control).
So if you go by the novels, apparently Mars rebelled against whatever colonial powers were ruling it from Earth before United Earth was established, and the Confederated Martian Colonies as a polity is actually older than United Earth.
The ENT novel Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures establishes that the Confederated Martian Colonies was the first polity to join the new United Federation of Planets after its founding member states, becoming a Federation member state six months after its founding. Section 31: Control established that CMC membership in the Federation was an extremely contentious issue for the Martian public, and that the deciding votes were cast by only a small number of Members of the Martian Parliament. The novel Section 31: Rogue establishes that Martian nationalism remains a political force into the 2370s, with some Martians believing that Federation membership has reduced their world to Starfleet's garage.
Is that from ENT?
The UE would seem to have existed in some form in the 21st century. There was a space probe from the UESPA, but that United Earth SPA and the later United Earth of the mid 22nd century might have been two different organizations, employing similar names.
Or it took a real long time to put the UE together.
At least it wasn't the Peoples Democratic Republic of United Earth.
TNG "Attached."
That's how I see it. UESPA in 2060s was probably a private organization or the beginnings of a movement which was abolished in the 2070s. After people of the earth were open to united earth concepts it was revised. Becoming the official world government in 2150.
UESPA is a government agency, but it isn't an entire government.
Could it be possible that the Federation, when first founded, was more like the EU and not some fully integrated and united political entity? Over the next 200 years the government grows and changes and takes on more power and authority?
Could it be possible the Romulan War was, indeed, fought after the founding of the Federation, but there was no "attack on one is an attack on all" clause to the charter? If so, then the war could have been specifically between Earth and Romulus and the allies being supporters to the major combatants.
Could it be that the less advanced warships that offered no room for quarter were simply the result of resources and finances? Sure, there were more advanced ships like the NX-01 but the cheaper ships were easier to spam out and push to the front lines of the conflict. Losing such ships isn't as much a drain on the resources in terms of tech and crew.
Could it be possible the Romulan War was, indeed, fought after the founding of the Federation, but there was no "attack on one is an attack on all" clause to the charter? If so, then the war could have been specifically between Earth and Romulus and the allies being supporters to the major combatants.
Could it be that the less advanced warships that offered no room for quarter were simply the result of resources and finances? Sure, there were more advanced ships like the NX-01 but the cheaper ships were easier to spam out and push to the front lines of the conflict. Losing such ships isn't as much a drain on the resources in terms of tech and crew.
But was UE a planet wide government in the 2060's? Or maybe a small collection of governments, 5 or 10 at the time?
Or (as mentioned) a non-government entity.
No, it didn't exist until the mid 22nd century.
Although just because UESPA had "United Earth" in the name, doesn't mean a whole lot. Perhaps it was formed to encourage the nations of the world to form the government that would one day bear that name?
There might have been a United Earth that was basically a renamed United Nations, but it wasn't a government per se. In such a scenario, it would have been toast by 2079 in any event.
We have no idea when the UE was founded. But we know for certain that it finally absorbed the last independent nations and whatnot in 2150 sharp. And we have oblique references to independent nations basically right up to that date, such as there being a Royal Navy a generation before Malcolm Reed, supposedly in theory existing to fight whatever navies other nations on Earth possessed.
Is it possible that 2150 is also the founding date? Certainly - we just need to consider the UE in UESPA commercial hyperbole (after all, there are half a dozen organizations called United Earth in existence today already, sez Google).
Is it likely? Not very - something like that would have to be forced down the throats of the minority by an empowered majority (of guns, even if not citizens) that had already embraced the basic idea.
As for 2079, some unknown corner of the world has a powerful court enforcing the wishes of some sort of a regime. We know the NUN is outdated at that time, but we don't learn that some other organization wouldn't already have taken its place (with a completely different policy on certain issues relevant to the TNG pilot dialogue). What we do learn is that as of 2079, "united Earth" specifically is considered "nonsense" - but quite possibly exactly because it exists and is loathed (and "abandoned") by the majority...
Timo Saloniemi
Is it possible that 2150 is also the founding date? Certainly - we just need to consider the UE in UESPA commercial hyperbole (after all, there are half a dozen organizations called United Earth in existence today already, sez Google).
Is it likely? Not very - something like that would have to be forced down the throats of the minority by an empowered majority (of guns, even if not citizens) that had already embraced the basic idea.
As for 2079, some unknown corner of the world has a powerful court enforcing the wishes of some sort of a regime. We know the NUN is outdated at that time, but we don't learn that some other organization wouldn't already have taken its place (with a completely different policy on certain issues relevant to the TNG pilot dialogue). What we do learn is that as of 2079, "united Earth" specifically is considered "nonsense" - but quite possibly exactly because it exists and is loathed (and "abandoned") by the majority...
Timo Saloniemi
Didn’t TNG’s pilot episode mention something about a New United Nations? Apparently it had no more “teeth” than the real UN does... 
Attached mentioned (in a hypothetical) Australia joining in 2150. You said "United Earth was formed only a few years prior in the 2150s," which is why I asked if that (was formed) was from ENT.
Was 2150 the founding year of the UE, or just when Australia joined?
This is never directly spelt out, at least not to my memory.
It is 100% certain that Australia didn't join before 2150 and did join in 2150 - otherwise the hypothetical scenario makes no sense whatsoever. It's also clear from the context that after 2150, there were no independent nations left on Earth.
What is left unclear:
1) Did some nations join before 2150 and thus before Australia?
2) If so, how many nations in addition to Australia waited until 2150 (at least onre other necessarily did) and what does this tell about the politics of the day?
3) Also, if so, when did the first nations join, and did this mean they ceased to exist at that moment, just like 2150 necessarily meant Australia ceasing to exist as an independent player in wider politics?
The first is an interesting question IMHO. The second is details. The third is food for thought: all the UE stuff seems to be about unifying Earth against outer space after first contact, thus about stripping nations of their ability to pursue their own space agendas (the entire point of the "Attached" discussion). But Q associates "united Earth nonsense" with the pre-contact 2030s decisions of the NUN...
Timo Saloniemi
What is left unclear:
1) Did some nations join before 2150 and thus before Australia?
2) If so, how many nations in addition to Australia waited until 2150 (at least onre other necessarily did) and what does this tell about the politics of the day?
3) Also, if so, when did the first nations join, and did this mean they ceased to exist at that moment, just like 2150 necessarily meant Australia ceasing to exist as an independent player in wider politics?
The first is an interesting question IMHO. The second is details. The third is food for thought: all the UE stuff seems to be about unifying Earth against outer space after first contact, thus about stripping nations of their ability to pursue their own space agendas (the entire point of the "Attached" discussion). But Q associates "united Earth nonsense" with the pre-contact 2030s decisions of the NUN...
Timo Saloniemi
Crusher's reference in "Attached" (TNG) is to the World Government (capitalized like that in the script, FWIW) rather than to United Earth. We do know from "Friendship One" (VGR) and "First Flight" (ENT) that UESPA and Starfleet both existed well prior to 2150. The script of "Encounter At Farpoint" (TNG) also capitalizes Q's reference to "'United Earth' nonsense"—in response to Picard's citing of a New United Nations declaration regarding "Earth citizens"—and puts it in what might be interpreted as scare quotes. (Of course, it also differs from the aired episode in that the year of said decision is given as 2016 rather than 2036.)
In "Up The Long Ladder" (TNG) Picard cites the European Hegemony, "a loose alliance formed in the early part of the 22nd century," as "the first stirrings of world government." That's the line in the episode as aired. The script in fact says "it was the first step toward a world government," yet while it doesn't seem to have been there intended by the writer, Stewart's delivery makes it possible to interpret this too as referring to the proper "World Government" of "Attached" (TNG). This is attractive, because it would also nicely accommodate the references in "Farpoint" to what do seem to be at least stirrings of some nominal and seemingly partly functional "United Earth" prior to WWIII—presumably what is referred to as "the mid-21st century wars" earlier in the script, and in a context that reinforces this as being what Q means by the "more rapid progress" which led to it being "abolished" by 2079 (2049 in the script).
I think I have some further notes on this stuff somewhere that I'll look for and check in the morning. Must sleep now!
-MMoM
In "Up The Long Ladder" (TNG) Picard cites the European Hegemony, "a loose alliance formed in the early part of the 22nd century," as "the first stirrings of world government." That's the line in the episode as aired. The script in fact says "it was the first step toward a world government," yet while it doesn't seem to have been there intended by the writer, Stewart's delivery makes it possible to interpret this too as referring to the proper "World Government" of "Attached" (TNG). This is attractive, because it would also nicely accommodate the references in "Farpoint" to what do seem to be at least stirrings of some nominal and seemingly partly functional "United Earth" prior to WWIII—presumably what is referred to as "the mid-21st century wars" earlier in the script, and in a context that reinforces this as being what Q means by the "more rapid progress" which led to it being "abolished" by 2079 (2049 in the script).
I think I have some further notes on this stuff somewhere that I'll look for and check in the morning. Must sleep now!
-MMoM
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