So by your logic TNG: "Where Silence Has Lease" is not set in the same universe as "The Immunity Syndrome" as the former makes it clear that there is "no record of any Federation vessel encountering anything remotely like this" while Kirk describes the phenomenon in the later episode 100 years earlier literally as a hole in space, right?
so the producers and writers said that discovery will lead into TOS (60's aesthetics and all)...
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and?
Even allowing that it was supposed to be an entirely new concept to them (which is still eminently disputable, especially as an in-universe "reality"), it is nevertheless factually incorrect that they act "amazed." Their shock and dismay, displayed before the cloak is revealed, is over the destructive power of the plasma weapon. The invisibility, whether it was thereto only considered possible in theory or not, is taken matter-of-fact-ly without a break in stride. Spock in no way acts "amazed" when he witnesses the cloak at work for the first time, nor does Kirk when he tells him it's theoretically possible through the selective bending of light. Again, it's often your inaccurate characterization of what's actually shown that makes your statements problematic and harder to credit, even where you might have a valid point.
He didn't forget. He evaded, exploiting a technicality. It was neither the first nor the last time. He did it all the time. That's entirely characteristic behavior of Spock, even totally disregarding DSC.
Very odd, considering "Charlie X" (TOS)...why is it that you don't cite "Balance Of Terror" as the continuity gaffe?
You often confuse intent for content. There are often ambiguities in the latter that readily allow for interpretations that modify or otherwise differ from (and even sometimes go directly against) the former, but are nonetheless consistent with the text itself as presented. Intent goes out the window as soon as a different writer has a different intent. Not that there's never anything to be said for remaining consistent with previous intent, but it's nothing approaching any sort of requirement when it comes to maintaining story continuity. Content is more persistent, but still often very open to reinterpretation and recontextualization.
None of what you list are actually continuity problems, though.
No one ever said such a thing had never existed, to my recollection. Your implicit assumption that if it had ever existed, it would have been mentioned or seen in use elsewhere, is fallacious.
So the equally-drastic change of appearance in TMP, presented without so much as a single word of explanation or comment for more than fifteen years, was until then to be considered proof that the movies and other shows were in a different timeline from TOS?
What is inconsistent about Klingon culture as presented in DSC? Did the revamp of Klingon culture in TNG and beyond constitute proof that it was in a different timeline from TOS? Do cultures not change over time? Can they not return to their roots after straying?
Technology that clearly had predecessors going back at least a hundred years prior to DSC, just going by other shows, and which has already been rendered practically useless halfway through the first season?
Discovery is a newer ship than the Enterprise, with newer transporters, and Lorca "is a man who does not fear the things normal people fear." And the lingering fears that certain other characters had about it—despite it having been explicitly done before—in "Day Of The Dove" (TOS) were ultimately proven unwarranted there.
Did the technology look the same everywhere, aboard every ship, in other series that ran concurrently with each other?
We haven't seen one on DSC, and we did see something much closer to one on the Enterprise in TAS.
What is inconsistent about this? The Defiant, a ship originally designed without frills for fighting Borg and not much else, had "a new holo-communicator" installed in "For The Uniform" (DS9). No one said holographic communications were entirely new. Holographic interfaces of various types for various purposes were previously seen in ENT, STIII, TUC, and TNG. Kirk and company seemed already familiar with the concept in "The Return Of The Archons" (TOS). There has been no suggestion in DSC as yet that there are holoemitters throughout the ship that would allow a projection to roam free from one room to another, and no suggestion that the emitters that are present could handle a sentient program of the EMH's complexity.
We have seen uniforms change many times within a decade before, and overlap in the wearing of one type in one location and another in others. Heck, we saw a little bit of that just in TOS, even, to say nothing of the later shows and movies.
You've got to be kidding, right? Warp effects have been different in almost every iteration of Star Trek. You might as well complain that Sarek and Mudd don't look the same.
How do you know the TOS "patches" weren't actually badges? They have a metallic sheen, and on occasion are even seen absent or in a different position.
This is all such ludicrous "evidence" that I can scarcely even believe I'm bothering to go to the trouble of refuting it.
-MMoM
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Which is not "never". That's my only point.
I'm pretty sure the "They" being referred to was CBS, and last I checked, Star Trek Continues is not CBS.
I wouldn't assert that as a fact but there is nothing to disprove the possibility.
I'm very certain they don't.
Their immediate reaction was to note it became visible to fire. They're carefully considering and noticing a potential weakness. Spock does the equivalent of a facial shrug. Kirk is mildly confused that he can't see it. Then comes the "theoretically possible" line, delivered in the most matter-of-fact way.
Maybe, but certainly not shocking. Or else they had horrible directing and acting that day. Now here's something similar that was acted as if it were shocking and amazing:
So it appears that something invisible to the eye but trackable by sensors is fairly mundane, but something visible to the eye but invisible to sensors is "fascinating" and worthy of 10 full seconds of dumbfounded glares and dramatic music.
Does the production crew believe in MWI? Could it be an extremely close universe to TOS in their minds? Or do they implicitly think that FC made some impactypnTOS?
FWIW, the first point (that producers have to state that it's a reboot) is countered by the second (that viewers have to accept what is produced or stop watching, which implies producers don't have to make such a statement).
I think it addresses your point, i.e., that someone did make a contemporary show that looks like it was produced in the '60s.
Other than being created and credited to all the same people that made Star Trek.
In 1975 that would have been a preposterous statement.
(If my sarcasm sensors are down I profusely apologize.)
Quite right. Still not "never".
I'm pretty sure it's a problem when you don't have to look far to see people complaining about these things. You can attempt some mental gymnastics to explain them all away, scratching and clawing at any outlier episode you can think of but the question is whether it's reasonable to do so. They did the same thing in episode "Parallels" when they said Worf got hit in the head during the tournament as an explanation for all of the differences in reality that Worf was noticing.
It's pretty well implied that such a thing had never been invented before.
From TNG "Where no one has gone before"
Lorca said that it takes them 1.3 seconds to travel to the beta quadrant implying there is a velocity involved.
From Voyager "Hope and Fear"
and yet the Spore drive is never mentioned on a series where concepts of faster means of travel would be in high demand. Inference to the best explanation suggests that galactic travel is beyond the capabilities of the 23rd and 24th centuries.
The issue may have been raised back then, I don't know. The internet did not exist and I was not born yet when TMP came out. It could have also been a timeline change rather than a reality change. We know that Annorax was constantly changing the timeline. Who knows what kind of butterfly effects could have been caused over the course of the centuries.
The idea of eating corpses did not fit in with what we know of their culture. Rescuing the dead out in space when the dead are regarded as empty shells by TNG era. Putting their dead on the hull of their ships is also a new idea. Yet all of these things need to change rather quickly to make sense with TOS.
The cloaking device was regarded as a new piece of technology during the battle of Caleb IV which presumably occurred between TOS and the movies. Klingon's cloak before going into battle and yet we never see the Klingons use cloaking technology in TOS.
TOS "Let this be your last battlefield"
They encounter a ship using stealth technology and Kirk suggests that it could be the romulans but the idea of it being the Klingons never comes up here or anywhere else in the series.
This is what they said in the episode:
Ellen Landry and Michael Burnham also used Intra-ship beaming to sickbay. The phrase "rarely been done" does not fit in well with seeing it in two episodes in the beginning of the season already.
Not entire magnitudes more advanced. Like the environmental suits that have the interfaces right in the glass.
Deciding not to call it a holodeck does not change that they were still using holographic technology and attacking holographic enemies that were not transparent. TAS is questionable canon and even in that example they projected landscapes and not holographic beings there. Harry Kim already stated that they did not have holodecks in those days.
TNG era ships used the consoles that had the LCARS graphical interface. But Discovery uses holographic interfaces and even allow them to pull the holograms out of the interface and move them around just like they did on Nero's ship from the late 24th century. This is supposed to take place between "The Cage" and TOS, the technologies don't even look close to the same.
It's inconsistent for that century. We see those type of interfaces in the 31st century with Daniel's technology. "For the Uniform" takes place in the 24th century. It's a stretch to use this as proof to claim that the technology is common place a century earlier. They talked about the hole-communicator a lot in that episode for a piece of technology that is supposed to be common place a hundred years ago.
See how Spock assumes they cannot interact with the hologram of Landru in "The Return Of The Archons"
But we see them interacting with holographic communicators regularly on star trek discovery. What does a projection have to do with being able to interact with the projection? It's also Spock that has to point out to Kirk during the episode that Landru is a projection rather than Kirk realizing it himself. That's more of a demonstration of vulcan knowledge of alien technology than starship technology. Star Trek 6's hologram is shown as used by the klingons and not the federation, in a single scene only and not common place, and pretty big chunk of time into the future beyond the time frame we're talking about.
And on every starship they show during the discovery series every communication they make to other ships they're all wearing the same type of uniform as the ones shown on discovery. It's unusual that they would not show any of the uniforms we see in either "The Cage" or "The Man Trap" as we do during uniform transitions on the other series. But we see uniform changes are pretty common place with timeline changes "Yesterday's Enterprise" or alternate universes "Mirror, Mirror".
See:
Guinan's showing the same concerns as I am about the way everything looks. The changes they're showing on discovery are consistent with changes in reality like what Guinan noticed in "yesterday's enterprise" except the changes are even worse
They look pretty close to the same actually
That is another great point. Why do Sarek and Mudd look so different? Vulcan's don't change in appearance that quickly as they age.
They're referred to as patches on memory alpha and they look like patches. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Assignment_patch Some had a shine to them, some did not. Patches can be absent or in a different position too.
This is the same kind of evidence used to establish alternate realities, alternate timelines, and parallel universes. Like in "Year of Hell"
OBRIST: Something went wrong. The entire Krenim Imperium, it's reverted to a pre-warp state.
All the tech changed from a single timeline change in that example. That makes perfect sense with the sophisticated technology we're seeing on Star Trek Discovery compared with TOS. Occam's razor would support this explanation for what we're seeing here and we can see alternate realities, alternate timelines, and parallel universes are common in star trek. In fact Discovery is in an alternate reality at the end of the last episode.
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Star Trek Continues is a piece of historical reenactment, not a modern TV show.
Yup, Trek fans have been doing that for years. There nothing at all new about that aspect. Star Trek has been breaching its own continuity since there was a second episode to contradict the first.
One pretty much never has to look far to find fans complaining about even the slightest of things.
How do the quotes you posted show that? At most they show that Picard didn't know about it, and that despite Starfleet's best efforts it could not be duplicated and/or effectively deployed to help Voyager at that time. Maybe Discovery and Glenn were the only ships they were ever able to make it work on, with neither surviving beyond DSC? Maybe the mycelial network doesn't survive either? Maybe it all remains classified at a level above even Hayes' or has even been suppressed by Section 31? Who knows?
"Blood Oath" (DS9):
KANG: This time, we will reach the Albino. And when we do, I will cut his heart out and eat it while he watches me with his dying breath! [...] Would you eat from the heart of the Albino, Jadzia Dax?
"The Sword Of Kahless" (DS9):
KOR: Kang took the high ground and, keeping the three suns to his back, he forced the enemy to fight him against the blinding light.
DAX: When Kang told this story, you took the high ground.
KOR: Who gets the credit is of no importance. What matters is this: in the end the mountainside was covered with dead so that not a square meter of ground could be seen. We found T'nag's body by the river, its waters red with blood. Which of us had slain him, no one could say for certain. So we cut out his heart and all three of us feasted on it together.
DAX: Big heart.
"Covenant" (DS9):
EZRI: Would it bother you if Odo believed in Klingon religion?
KIRA: Not if he got something out of it.
BASHIR: He'd get to eat the hearts of his enemies.
EZRI: And go to Sto'Vo'Kor when he dies.
Besides, they were starving. It's not normal in most human cultures to eat corpses either, but starving people have done it many times throughout history.
At no point as yet has it been suggested that these practices are followed by any larger segment of Klingon society than T'Kuvma's specific band of followers on that one ship. In fact, we're shown that once T'Kuvma is dead and Kol takes over, even they stop following them.
Why not between DSC and TOS? Fits better, actually. By "The Time Trap" (TAS) it's definitely a known fact that Klingon ships have cloaking devices. (Plus, see below.)
By original production order, we never properly saw a Klingon ship until "Elaan Of Troyius" (TOS), where one indeed materializes out of nowhere as if decloaking, after initially appearing only as a sensor ghost like a cloaked ship would. (They added some retroactively in some earlier "remastered" episodes, and in "Trials And Tribble-ations" [DS9], but the fact that versions of those events exist both with and without visible Klingon ships only gives us more reason to think they did have it!)
There could be any number of reasons why they'd think it likelier to be Romulans than Klingons. Besides, they're both using the same kind of ships at this time, so why bother making the distinction?
Twice (or even a dozen or score of times!) aboard a single ship still readily qualifies as "rarely" compared to the thousands of transports that must be done daily in all of Starfleet. (Heck, OTOH, Spock could only be saying it's rarely been done on the Enterprise.) Besides, the fears of Spock and Scotty in "Day Of The Dove" ultimately turn out to be unjustified. No reason why the crew of Discovery can't have figured this out earlier. Also, Landry and Burnham don't really seem particularly more timid or less reckless than Lorca, do they?
She said she "turned on data collection mode" or something like that. So it can be turned off as well. No reason why at least some other suits (we've seen a number of different models for different specialized purposes) couldn't have the same sort of feature that we just never saw. Or maybe they fell out of fashion because people found them distracting and kept accidentally bumping into things!
(You've really got to stop assuming that if we never saw or heard about something on other shows, that means it didn't exist! It just means we had no reason to assume it did up to now. Now we do have such reason.)
That's just it, though. It was specifically "Holodecks" that were said (once, by exactly one person) to not have been around in the 23rd century, not holotechnology in general. We've had this out at great length before. Holographic enemies in the form of non-transparent flying balls were being attacked as part of combat simulations way back in the 2150s per "Sleeping Dogs" (ENT) and "Harbinger" (ENT). Those Klingons are just fancier-shaped balls. No suggestion that they're near-sentient characters you can converse or make kissy kissy with like in TNG. I'm betting they don't smell like real Klingons either!
Maybe the TNG characters just liked the tactile controls? But the real reason more extensive and interactive use of the holoconsoles wasn't made was because of budget restrictions. We shouldn't take the budgetary restrictions of TNG or TOS as indicative of in-universe technological limitations.
Say, that's a good point! Maybe after Archer acquired this tech from Daniels, Starfleet was able to reverse engineer some of it, but later had to give it up when the Temporal Prime Directive came into play. (Yes, I'm kidding. Maybe.
)Again, it was new for the Defiant (originally designed to be exactly one thing: a tough little ship for fighting Borg) and seemingly for the Malinche but that doesn't mean it was new tech altogether or everywhere. And you know what else they mentioned about it? That it was kind of annoying. Perhaps it just fell out of fashion or favor for a time because it was seen as gratuitous and viewscreens worked just as well and were less unsettling, and then later made a resurgence for some reason? Things like that have happened in real life, you know. Not all possible forms of tech are necessarily required or desired for every application all the time!
Nope. Kirk assumes he can interact with it, even knowing that it's a projection, as if he thinks it's a communication coming from a living person, and Spock points out that it's not as he observes the lack of reaction/response:
LANDRU: I am Landru.
SPOCK: Projection, Captain. Unreal.
KIRK: But beautiful, Mister Spock, with no apparatus at this end.
LANDRU: You have come as destroyers. You bring an infection.
KIRK: You are holding my ship. I demand that you release it.
LANDRU: You have come to a world without hate, without fear, without conflict. No war, no disease, no crime. None of the ancient evils. Landru seeks tranquillity. Peace for all. The universal good.
KIRK: We mean you no harm. Ours is a mission of peace and good will.
LANDRU: The good must transcend the evil. It shall be done. So it has been since the beginning.
SPOCK: He doesn't hear you, Captain.
Every communication we see is with only one representative. Maybe there are others in different ones roaming the halls unseen. Maybe they're all part of the Ninth Fleet, and the Connies and other vessels are part of the Sixth? Maybe ships on deep space assignment far from the front lines get more leeway as to what uniforms they want to wear? Maybe the Enterprise was one of the first ships to get the new uniforms, and they're just taking a while to make their way to Discovery and others, what with the war going on and all?
You're right that there's a lot more uniformity to the visual effects than I recalled. But still, the movie era effects didn't look like that:
They don't?
Oops. I guess STII and STIII-IV are not in the same timeline?
That's even less offical than the Offical Canon Database™!
They sure sew quickly in the future!
Also, TMP saw both patches and badges in use simultaneously.
Still, perhaps you're right and all this does indicate an alternate reality of some sort! We'll see. It's certainly not out of the realm of in-universe (multiverse?) possibility. But I just want to try one more little thing here...
Hmmm...
I find your story quite...fascinating, brother.
-MMoM
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^ Marsh is just rehashing his old threads. You haven't told him anything he doesn't already know. This shotgun approach is his go-to tactic. Instead of focusing on any point, he moves topics each time one fails. When you end up returning to one, you start at square one. Of course he thinks that the sheer number of points somehow strengthens them. It's the same kind of thinking and argumentation conspiracy theorists use. "Okay but what about this other thing. There are so many questions! How can you deny this?" Never mind that every one of them is illogical and shallow, and it's impossible to have any real discussion.
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