G
Gul Sengosts
Guest
Well a few times when Kirk told Spock he was almost human (in some way or another), Spock complained about such unnecessary insults. So I can't blame McCoy for pestering him.
Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time
- Thread starter Sci-fi fan
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I think sometimes it’s one and sometimes the other. It’s sadly inconsistent. I just lean one way because I think it makes more sense than having an outright bigot on the bridge, and it fits better with their relationship in general...most of the time. Thinking about it, I wonder if it’s further away than I thought, and something to do with his ‘southern’ character intended by some of the writers. That would be a shame, even though I am not exactly a Full TOS fan. Hmm.
Chekov also got rapey with Kang's wife. I can't say I'm comfortable with the idea of taking those moments and concluding that they are deeply imbedded to their characters just brought out by the entity. Thankfully that whole thing with the entity clearly warping their minds with false events like Chekov having a brother can be a way to handwave these random outbursts.
As for McCoy, I categorize his teasing of Spock as what I call warm hearted racism. As long as he's not doing anything malicious like refusing to treat him as a patient because of his heritage then there's no real harm.
The funny thing is I like McCoy as well, both versions, despite part of me feeling he comes across as a bigot when it comes to Spock. If McCoy was an officer in the armed forces of our time in the USA or GB and treated a fellow minority officer in the same manner , I doubt many viewers would find it funny, then again maybe some folks would. The writers made them learn to respect each other and become friends but so called banter started before they established their friendship.
Personally the Caucasian friends that I have, none of them took the path of 'lets racially abuse NR because we like her so much. Its just banter'.
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McCoy was a product of a character depiction of his time (the characterisations from the Sixties). Maybe he wasn't seen as being a creation that was bigoted, or maybe he was. Like we want out current diverse cast to be above prejudice and bigotry. To say this and not say that because that is the way we want to have our future represented. However isn't it realistic to expect the flaws in humanity to still exist? Seriously I don't want my entertainment to excuse or use bigotry. Both bigotry and as a recent example, colourful language, are realistic expectations of a future set using mainly flawed human beings. We just don't need bigotry as an influence in our entertainment, realistic or not. Maybe forty years from now people will watch Discovery and say - gosh look how they've depicted Michael's dialogue with Tilly. Damn she was insensitive to someone who was talking about 'special needs'. I don't know, lenses and sensitivities change.
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^ I don't expect perfection in the characters, but some professionalism would be nice, maybe that's too realistic and boring. Its the 23rd century should we really expect to have racial banter on the bridge between the CMO and the XO? What they say to each other off duty is one thing, what they say in front of the other crew is another. To me its worse since in TOS Spock came across as the only 'alien in the village' surrounded by a bunch of prejudiced humans.
The McCoy stuff is balanced because Spock is often going on about how his Vulcan this or that makes him superior at some points. Between that and his ocasional apparent rejection of his Human side, McCoy sometimes comes over as someone trying to rail against Spocks own prejudice by taking the Mickey.
I think it’s very very rare to see the banter between friends across racial divides. When I was younger, a lot of the time the largest of my social groups were black British, especially my work colleagues. I think we only ever had anything that could be called racial banter about 4 times, and only once or twice using seriously offensive terms...and even then it was more mocking terms themselves rather than even using stereotypes, and about judging each other’s characters enough to know where the lines were. Only twice did I or anyone else mess that up and misjudge it. And sometimes they were funny moments, that had a sort of beauty that comes from ‘here are people from mixed racial backgrounds, taking the mick out of the racism of their forebears’ because for us, it didn’t exist...shame the world went backwards and the older more prejudiced generations got a hold on culture again. Equality works best when everyone treats each other like individuals, but the current era sees hate being stoked everywhere, and the only equality is everyone raging with the chips we have been told to have on our shoulder, equal anger and never talking about it. Divide and rule from people that don’t like us all getting along I guess.
And it will only going to get worse until March 2019....
Only if we let it.
March 2019? That's the official Brexit date, right?
Spock was smart. Documented everything, then he waited till he got back to Earth to file all his EEO complaints with the JIC. They gave him paid leave while it got sorted out. He worked on his tan and the Kohlinar thing. McCoy got dismissed as the instigator with his ass beamed down to try and work on a private practice in rural Kentucky. Kirk, bureaucracies being what they are, got an extra stripe and a tiny windowless office filling out requisitions where he couldn't hurt anyone. He had to spend 2 hours of every shift taking sensitivity training in a life that became a private hell, while ostensibly Starfleet had done well by its greatest hero.
All would have went on this way, were it not for V'ger.
Which is also reflective not only of the late 1960s and how sexual assault was portrayed at the time but also how Klingons were depicted during this early chapter of Trek history. Mara is a much more docile Klingon woman than we'd see in later series and films and were Chekov trying to sexually assault and even rape a TNG-era Klingon I imagine it wouldn't have ended well for the poor ensign. Kirk and Spock wouldn't even have needed to show up at the last second to rescue her. She'd have retaliated and either wounded or killed him for daring to lay Earther hands on a Klingon warrior in such a violent and dishonorable manner.
He almost didn't learn his lesson enough to survive the second time, as they follow Klaa's first mate around, Vixis, until she stands next to her captain.
This was depicted as 1) clearly wrong and 2) out of character for the young ensign. So they might not have been as backward as all that.
It certainly wasn't Spock winking and giggling at Rand at the end of The Enemy Within.
Yes, latter day Klingons would have been more formidable, but for story reasons she still would have been reduced to helplessness by one means or another.. Klingons aren't Kryptonians.
Whatever we think of everyone's behavior in "Day of the Dove" (TOS)—and I agree the entity there may have had more of a malevolent influence than, say, the virus in "The Naked Time" (TOS), which only revealed things that were already present beneath the surface—there are still numerous other occasions where Spock displays blanket prejudices against humans and trolls them in similar fashion to McCoy's barbs. He just does it in typically "cool" Spock style. I've got no beef with calling out Bones, but if we're doing so, Spock shouldn't get a pass. Their bigotry—to whatever extent it was truly that rather than rhetoric—was mutual, and generally speaking both gave as good as they got.
-MMoM
-MMoM
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Whatever we think of everyone's behavior in "Day of the Dove" (TOS)—and I agree the entity there may have had more of a malevolent influence than, say, the virus in "The Naked Time" (TOS), which only revealed things that were already present beneath the surface—there are still numerous other occasions where Spock displays blanket prejudices against humans and trolls them in similar fashion to McCoy's barbs. He just does it in typically "cool" Spock style. I've got no beef with calling out Bones, but if we're doing so, Spock shouldn't get a pass. Their bigotry—to whatever extent it was truly that rather than rhetoric—was mutual, and generally speaking both gave as good as they got.
-MMoM
That's why they were friends.
I think that was idea but you can't force it. It's like a hollow centre where she's this fairly dull creature that has SO many props. Man she has all the makings of an interesting character. The family pedigree with her association to Spock. She's the mutineer. She started the war. She fought Kol, she figured out something Stamets didn't in five seconds flat. Lorca has her going on every away mission. If presence alone made for a central character she does have that. If interest counts then she falls by the wayside. The actress is adequate but she and the character have been a letdown.
I hate that. Like they were afraid the character couldn't stand on her own.
That is really just bad writing. Most of the bad writing in the show revolves around her. They are trying to make her important and just didn't know how.
It's annoying and yet not unusual.
Hardly. Tacoma the Klingon started the war, Michael just somehow ended up taking the blame for it.
