Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[MakeshiftPython]

True, but then, Vulcan Hello was transmitted on CBS, and as they are releasing an episode a week, that function of getting your audience and showing the set up still applies.

Which I think was a mistake on CBS' part, likely because they transmitted it as a gimmick without considering whether or not it works as something that can stand on its own like all the pilots Trek had in the past. It clearly wasn't designed to be viewed that way. It's not just a sample of Discovery, it's one chapter of many. It would be like if they only aired the first half of that TWIN PEAKS two hour premiere, which would have been jarring (and not in the exact manner Frost/Lynch intended, of course).

Hasn’t it been documented that essentially speaking episode 3 was the true pilot or series premiere (same way Ds9, Voyager and ENT were all greenlit out of the gate, so it’s not that new for Trek.) which seemed very apparent once we got to it.

I think it helps assure viewers calling it a "true" preimiere episode so that they understand this is a closer approximation to the series proper as we understood in old television language, but I'm finding that there is no typical Discovery episode as it moves forward. I can't pick just one episode like I can out of the older shows aside from DS9 and give it to someone as a sample. There's a very good reason for that.

Even though us fans are experiencing this on a weekly basis like past shows, that's not how this show is designed for future viewing. When you look at the bigger picture I think the makers have designed this show to be something you binge watch from the start to see how it unfolds, unlike most of past Trek episodes that don't demand you to binge because each episode resolved the plot of the week.

I think that's why the first two episodes were immediately available rather than just the first. I also think that's why they were intentionally produced separately rather than formed as a feature length episode like past pilots. You're meant to hop from one episode to the next, because that's how all episodes of Discovery will be viewed by most people long after each has aired.

And that's just how television is starting to function now. Shows like STRANGER THINGS don't work by just watching one episode. It's a part of a piece, and that's what Trek is embracing.

 

[Tallguy]

Just an aside: I still love Farpoint. Even though I think much (most?) of the first season is nigh unwatchable.

In some ways the show's focus on Burnham and her career / story is more like the the Hornblower books (especially the later prequel novels). It's not about her ship as much as it is about her encounter with the ship and her time there. It also follows this format by bringing characters back that she had served with on previous crew.

As such it was both appropriate and interestingly different that the premier be about her former ship and shipmates.

Something that has bugged me about Star Trek as the years go by is that "The Enterprise" is not a job. Starfleet is a job. Having a static crew for decades at a time does not (by my understanding) happen. Disco might be a show that will be able to avoid that. Maybe.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

It would be new to see cast members arrive and depart the ship, changing up the dynamic each season. I've heard arguments that's what TNG should have done, as bringing in new characters would freshen the dynamic and continue on like Law and Order. Only reason that never could happen is that Paramount wanted to upgrade TNG to the movies.

 

[jaime]

Which I think was a mistake on CBS' part, likely because they transmitted it as a gimmick without considering whether or not it works as something that can stand on its own like all the pilots Trek had in the past. It clearly wasn't designed to be viewed that way. It's not just a sample of Discovery, it's one chapter of many. It would be like if they only aired the first half of that TWIN PEAKS two hour premiere, which would have been jarring (and not in the exact manner Frost/Lynch intended, of course).




I think it helps assure viewers calling it a "true" preimiere episode so that they understand this is a closer approximation to the series proper as we understood in old television language, but I'm finding that there is no typical Discovery episode as it moves forward. I can't pick just one episode like I can out of the older shows aside from DS9 and give it to someone as a sample. There's a very good reason for that.

Even though us fans are experiencing this on a weekly basis like past shows, that's not how this show is designed for future viewing. When you look at the bigger picture I think the makers have designed this show to be something you binge watch from the start to see how it unfolds, unlike most of past Trek episodes that don't demand you to binge because each episode resolved the plot of the week.

I think that's why the first two episodes were immediately available rather than just the first. I also think that's why they were intentionally produced separately rather than formed as a feature length episode like past pilots. You're meant to hop from one episode to the next, because that's how all episodes of Discovery will be viewed by most people long after each has aired.

And that's just how television is starting to function now. Shows like STRANGER THINGS don't work by just watching one episode. It's a part of a piece, and that's what Trek is embracing.

Totally. But Stranger Things is dropped for you all at once, and works with its cliff hanger setups making each episode into something of a chapter. The downside to this is...once it’s done it’s done, and you have to wait a long time for the next visit to Hawkins.
DSC is acting episodic, while not entirely being episodic. It’s titles don’t exactly roll off the tongue, and I am resorting to Friends style episode titling already. ‘The one with Spocks Dad’ ‘The one with the fairy forest’ ‘The one with the Klingons Tits’...ok maybe not that last one, but it might catch on for some people. I love crazy long portentous TOS titles, but even that didn’t do it every single episode.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Episodes were not all out at once like Netflix shows, but half of them are out there now ready to be viewed. New subscribers now can just experience it by binging it, unlike us that waited weekly. That's my point.

I didn't watch THE HANDMAID'S TALE when it came out on a weekly basis, but all episodes were available for me to watch by the time I started on that.

 

[fireproof78]

Something that has bugged me about Star Trek as the years go by is that "The Enterprise" is not a job. Starfleet is a job. Having a static crew for decades at a time does not (by my understanding) happen. Disco might be a show that will be able to avoid that. Maybe.

And yet there would be complaints that the crew wasn't stable enough, I guarantee it.

 

[Tallguy]

And yet there would be complaints that the crew wasn't stable enough, I guarantee it.

I agree. The only reason Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country let the crew move on with their lives was because they thought they weren't going to do anymore.

Sonequa Martin-Green has a truly unique role in Star Trek. She is truly the center of the show in a way that even Kirk never was.

 

[cooleddie74]

The new season of Mystery Science Theater 3000 dropped on Netflix all at once. All 13 episodes of Season 11 hit on the same day this past spring and hardcore Misties could stream the entire season in just a couple of days.

 

[jaime]

I agree. The only reason Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country let the crew move on with their lives was because they thought they weren't going to do anymore.

Sonequa Martin-Green has a truly unique role in Star Trek. She is truly the center of the show in a way that even Kirk never was.

She’s Sisko Mark 2 in that sense. When he went back to earth to work in a restaurant, we followed him. Lorca is also followed in DSC in much the same way we stuck with Kira fair bit too, though Ds9 was an ensemble cast, and they have arcs and ebbs and flows, it’s Sisko that primarily drives the story, both as commander of Ds9 and as the Emissary. Kira is about providing some of the World building and back story, but also has an arc that stretches from even before episode one through to the end of Ds9. While the focus is tighter on Burnham, you can see bits of Treks past (future) characters in there...Spock, Worf, Tom Paris...and talking about now, Kira too.

 

[cultcross]

Something that has bugged me about Star Trek as the years go by is that "The Enterprise" is not a job. Starfleet is a job. Having a static crew for decades at a time does not (by my understanding) happen.

It doesn't, but on the flip side, I don't want to see crew cycling for the sake of realism alone - it's a story, there should be some dramatic purpose to changing faces. Having said that, Discovery is not set up as such a stable premise as the other series (new crew set out on a mission intended to be long), so cast changes would make more dramatic sense as time goes on.

She’s Sisko Mark 2 in that sense. When he went back to earth to work in a restaurant, we followed him. Lorca is also followed in DSC in much the same way we stuck with Kira fair bit too, though Ds9 was an ensemble cast, and they have arcs and ebbs and flows, it’s Sisko that primarily drives the story, both as commander of Ds9 and as the Emissary. Kira is about providing some of the World building and back story, but also has an arc that stretches from even before episode one through to the end of Ds9. While the focus is tighter on Burnham, you can see bits of Treks past (future) characters in there...Spock, Worf, Tom Paris...and talking about now, Kira too.

DS9 is certainly the closest the spin offs have come to having a true lead. While there were plenty of episodes focusing on the other cast members, so it wasn't as on the nose as Discovery about who was the central character, the major arc of the show remained Sisko's story - it began and ended that way, and the major plot points are generally based on his choices.

 

[Four Lights]

For anyone familiar with videogames, old style Star Trek was like Nintendo. Sometimes laughed at and ridiculed for its wholesomeness by the 'cool' kids, but, just like Nintendo, catering to all those demographics who might not have bothered to otherwise buy any product/series in that sector at all.

Nintendo, of course, is a lot wiser than CBS, and would not erode unique selling points and brand image for the sake of a bit of cheap and easy adulation from demographics whose desire for endless jaded narcissistic cynicism could never be satiated for long anyway.

 

[Nyotarules]

If Michael Burnham is the smartest Starfleet officer he's ever known then Starfleet is in bigger trouble than we think.

According to what we see on the screen Starfleet is run mainly by white, middle aged, North American humans...its already in trouble.

 

[Nyotarules]

I think the Spock McCoy stuff is closer to the banter you might see between an Englishman, A Welshman, a Scotsman.

I disagree.The banter is based on Spock's racial origins. Spock did not choose to be Vulcan, he is Vulcan, it is the species and culture he was born into. Why McCoy feels the need to make jokes from it, I never figured out.
I bet if he tried the same racial specfic 'banter' on Sulu or Uhura, they would punch him into the Gamma quadrant.

 

[XCV330]

Nintendo, of course, is a lot wiser than CBS, and would not erode unique selling points and brand image for the sake of a bit of cheap and easy adulation from demographics whose desire for endless jaded narcissistic cynicism could never be satiated for long anyway.

Or Nintendo was timid and refused to adapt to changing a changing game market and settled for 3rd place while having to hope that the occasional nutty console will occasionally hit paydirt with the faithful.

Which is normally what CBS does, catering to the police procedural crowd, but they are doing something with different with DSC and its interesting to see how it will pan out for them.

 

[Four Lights]

Or Nintendo was timid and refused to adapt to changing a changing game market and settled for 3rd place while having to hope that the occasional nutty console will occasionally hit paydirt with the faithful.

Which is normally what CBS does, catering to the police procedural crowd, but they are doing something with different with DSC and its interesting to see how it will pan out for them.

Nintendo stuck to their guns through tough periods. They never tried to be Sony and they never tried to be Microsoft, as they knew older teenage boys and young men would mostly want the same formula of visual flashiness, violence and attitude. Star Trek should be seen in a similiar light.

Families, kids, women, girls, older people. Maybe even a few of those younger males willing to look at the merits of something with a unique take on things. They all could and should be mined by Star Trek the same way Nintendo does.

Nintendo has its formula and most of the time it works. I assume by "nutty console" you're talking about the Wii. Well they've had plenty of success in the past and present,and it's been achieved with a lot more than that one machine. Being different like that though often garners more respect, popularity and (for companies) profit than just chasing after the ephemeral tastes of the in crowd.

F bombs, swords fights and space battles all the time is the Nintendo eqivilent of giving Mario a chainsaw, or putting 90% of development effort into slick graphics over fun gameplay mechanics.

Star Trek was different, and it should never have had to start apologising for or altering that fact.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I disagree.The banter is based on Spock's racial origins. Spock did not choose to be Vulcan, he is Vulcan, it is the species and culture he was born into. Why McCoy feels the need to make jokes from it, I never figured out.
I bet if he tried the same racial specfic 'banter' on Sulu or Uhura, they would punch him into the Gamma quadrant.

Well, that's sort of exactly what McCoy is trying to get Spock to do, metaphorically speaking. He's attempting to get a rise out of him, test the truth and firmness of his espoused control over his emotions and beliefs in the IDIC principle, see if he can break through to the "human" part of him, with an eye toward better understanding. Note here that I'm not necessarily suggesting the incessant ribbing is always right or admirable or noble or endearing on McCoy's part. However, it certainly is a mutually accepted and embraced rhetorical dynamic between them that goes both ways. Spock is equally constantly trolling and poking fun at humanity as well. The historical context of ENT shows us that deeper and more serious racial prejudice and cultural mistrust between the two species goes back a long way, in fact all the way back to the circumstances surrounding their first contact with each other. And in their own manner, Spock and McCoy can be seen as an illustration in microcosm of how this sort of thing ultimately need not ruin relationships nor wholly poison the well in working and accomplishing goals together, but in fact can actually enhance and further those pursuits. Humans and Vulcans are uncomfortable with each other because each reveals things about the other that reflect and confront them with their own faults. That is the root from which the natural, basic, primal, near-universal fear of "the other" stems to begin with. Its expression fixates on the differences between one and the other, but really that is a deflection, a mechanism of defense against a disquieting underlying realization of how alike the two actually are.

-MMoM

 

[cooleddie74]

I disagree.The banter is based on Spock's racial origins. Spock did not choose to be Vulcan, he is Vulcan, it is the species and culture he was born into. Why McCoy feels the need to make jokes from it, I never figured out.
I bet if he tried the same racial specfic 'banter' on Sulu or Uhura, they would punch him into the Gamma quadrant.

As much as I've always loved McCoy he was and to an extent even in the Kelvin timeline films remains a soft-hearted bigot. He may not mean anything malevolent or hurtful when he takes jabs at Spock's heritage and ancestry but they're prejudiced comments based in stereotypes and make him sound like kind of a racist jerk even when you know he's not a bad guy. McCoy loves and trusts Spock. He just seems to love ridiculing him almost as much.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

^I agree, but again though, one could just as easily say almost exactly the same thing about Spock himself, with respect to his corresponding commentary about illogical humans and his total rejection of any identification with them, despite being in fact every bit as much one of us as he is a Vulcan.

 

[cooleddie74]

True. "Day of the Dove(TOS)" brought Spock's prejudices and racial bigotry to the surface when he almost pummeled Scotty with his bare hands on the bridge.

 

[fireproof78]

Discovery and hope??

Yes.