Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[fireproof78]

They needed a new TNG, but they have aimed at a new Ds9 then turned the grimdark up a notch or three. I don’t think that will work, and I don’t know if it’s highs will reach those of DS9.

No, they need a new show, not a new TNG. TNG suffered because it presented humans without conflict and that doesn't create drama. In this day and age, it strains credibility and suspension of disbelief even more than the starship does. Unfortunately, humanity struggles to imagine such a scenario.

DISCO needs to be its own thing, and current culture is struggling with a lot of wars and attacks, worries and fears. To me, its more natural to explore those themes, and the concept of redemption, than showing a humanity that has largely moved past it.

I might be wrong, but I think that DISCO's first season will bear out as an interesting story, not just interesting Trek, and will continue to grow and become better.

Like all Trek, and like humanity can.

 

[ralfy]

TNG and others also had conflict similar to STD, e.g., against Klingons. Perhaps the darker atmosphere of STD refers to "black ops," mutinies, treason, etc. But similar was depicted in other shows, especially in some of the movies.

Also, STD takes place before TNG and many of the other shows. That means for a bleak atmosphere to expand producers will have to reboot the franchise, create another universe for that growth, or imagine that in parallel to TOS, TNG, etc., is a darker side to Star Fleet that remains secret to even most Star Fleet personnel.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

I do think TMP has far more character stuff than it sometimes gets credit for. The whole story was more about the journey of the characters to rediscover those relationships. Spock is out of sorts. Kirk is out of sorts. McCoy is in conflict with Kirk because of Kirk's mindset. But, as the movie played on, they work back toward who they were

Indeed; it is actually full of character stuff, but it's much more subtly played than in say TWOK, it's actually very understated, and makes a lot of sense since they haven't seen each other for a couple of years.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

TMP is my favorite Trek film as well.

I do think TMP has far more character stuff than it sometimes gets credit for. The whole story was more about the journey of the characters to rediscover those relationships. Spock is out of sorts. Kirk is out of sorts. McCoy is in conflict with Kirk because of Kirk's mindset. But, as the movie played on, they work back toward who they were

Very well put. The coldness and harshness and alienation between the formerly warm and close-knit triumvirate is quite deliberate, as accordingly are all the grays and muted colors compared to TOS. I find it all quite stark and striking. I would never claim that the film fully lives up to the standards of 2001: A Space Odyssey, but I applaud and admire its taking inspiration from that more so than from Star Wars—which I love as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong—especially considering that their own SW is in all probability precisely what the studio wanted. TMP has serious balls...and I'm not just talking about Decker's jumpsuit!

I don't feel they accomplished that with Kirk well enough, or at least the only resolution I got out of his arc was "well, now that Decker is 'missing', I got my ship back!"

That is his arc, though. All Kirk ever really cared about was the Enterprise. He was basically married to her, and was useless doing anything else. Kirk in TMP is, metaphorically speaking, a man whose wife has left him and run off with a younger beau. He's miserable without her and would go to any length to get her back. He's deeply obsessed, but tries in vain to convince himself that he's totally over her.

Meanwhile, Decker has his own symmetrical and counter-balancing arc, longing to recapture the impossibly satisfying union he once had with Ilia and threw away in favor of his career, much to his lasting regret. His heart isn't really in his job at all, having always remained on Delta IV. He and Kirk, despite seeing each other initially as competitors, actually end up doing each other a mutual favor in swapping places. Ultimately they both get what they want, and theretofore had each been in the other's way of getting, not least because both were too prideful to admit that it was in fact what they'd each wanted all along.

-MMoM

 

[MakeshiftPython]

That's all sound for a story, I just never FEEL it conveyed in a way to be impactful because of how sterile it's executed. If that's the point to reflect how empty Kirk is, okay, but that does nothing for me besides feel sleepy from the bland cinematography. Decker and Ilia are non-entities that in the end merge with VGer, and I never care what Decker gets out of it because he's always just some stern looking guy on the bridge doing a back and forth with Kirk "as your XO I must blah blah blah". Kirk is too much of an unlikable asshole that he has to pull rank, and conveniently have Decker step aside in the end presumably regaining the ship, but I never feel a change in his character that made it feel like he earned it. All he did was take it and did too little with it afterward. Spock is the only one who's arc really works for me, and it's notable that it didn't need a sweeping Goldsmith cue to try to make the sickbay scene work because Nimoy just brought it.

Is the redoing of Kirk's arc in TWOK more overt than the subdued take in TMP? Yeah, because he comes off like a living breathing person this time. And I like that while he's miserable in that he's at least more humble, even if self-doubting. Kirk does want his ship back, but he feels he needs to move on and even tries deflecting Spock's offer to take back the chair. In the end he's notably moved past that finding a new sense of hope...

Which of course is undone by the beginning of TSFS, but that's that movie's issue.

 

[jaime]

No, they need a new show, not a new TNG. TNG suffered because it presented humans without conflict and that doesn't create drama. In this day and age, it strains credibility and suspension of disbelief even more than the starship does. Unfortunately, humanity struggles to imagine such a scenario.

DISCO needs to be its own thing, and current culture is struggling with a lot of wars and attacks, worries and fears. To me, its more natural to explore those themes, and the concept of redemption, than showing a humanity that has largely moved past it.

I might be wrong, but I think that DISCO's first season will bear out as an interesting story, not just interesting Trek, and will continue to grow and become better.

Like all Trek, and like humanity can.

You miss my point, which is not that DSC should be TNG, but that it should be like TNG...approachable, a fresh start with wide appeal, not something as niche as DS9 (which is not a bad thing, just to be clear.)
It needed a wide audience to pick up the ball, then go for more complexity in the next season or the next show. This isn’t a ‘DSC isn’t TNG/isn’t Trek’ comment, it’s a rumination on whether going heavy, going niche, going narrow audience, is something that will serve the show and the franchise in general well. I think it will be fine for the near future, but long term with Trek, you sort of hope for loftier ambitions that a remembered pop culture thing (once game of thrones ends, unless they get those spin offs flying, it will eventually just be a ‘oh I remember that’ thing for pop culture documentaries. X Files and Twin Peaks are the only things I can think of that cAme back from that)

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I get what you mean, TOS and TNG were very optimistic and generally light tv shows for their times that families could enjoy together. CBS could have looked to them and did a new Trek but suitable for a contemporary audience where it presents characters still finding peaceful solutions. That's why episodes like "The Corbomite Maneuver" resonate because it shows us in the future doing our best to try to make something great out of what seems a dire situation. Even in DS9 the Dominion war was ended not by force but by Odo making a plea to end it in exchange for the survival of his race.

DISCO on the other hand saves the day by killing the bad guys. Sure, Trek has done that on occasion, especially in the movies, but I do believe Trek can present a better example of how we solve problems in the future without the need to kill.

To be clear, I am enjoying the show as it grows on me, but I can't help but long for a more lighter show not steeped in so much darkness.

 

[plynch]

Exactly. I like it, and look forward to it weekly, but as if it is any new, good series, not because it is Star Trek-y. Because it really isn't. I'd watch Orville, but I can't stand the "humor."

 

[Pauln6]

I expect it was felt that Enterprise's lacklustre performance meant that the wider audience wanted something different to hopeful trek. This is an experiment.

 

[jaime]

I expect it was felt that Enterprise's lacklustre performance meant that the wider audience wanted something different to hopeful trek. This is an experiment.

And yet they went with another prequel. Officially The Most Hated format by genre fans in general.

 

[Pauln6]

And yet they went with another prequel. Officially The Most Hated format by genre fans in general.

game of thrones and Lord of the rings are both doing prequels. They're the new sequel.

 

[cultcross]

That's all sound for a story, I just never FEEL it conveyed in a way to be impactful because of how sterile it's executed. If that's the point to reflect how empty Kirk is, okay, but that does nothing for me besides feel sleepy from the bland cinematography. Decker and Ilia are non-entities that in the end merge with VGer, and I never care what Decker gets out of it because he's always just some stern looking guy on the bridge doing a back and forth with Kirk "as your XO I must blah blah blah". Kirk is too much of an unlikable asshole that he has to pull rank, and conveniently have Decker step aside in the end presumably regaining the ship, but I never feel a change in his character that made it feel like he earned it. All he did was take it and did too little with it afterward. Spock is the only one who's arc really works for me, and it's notable that it didn't need a sweeping Goldsmith cue to try to make the sickbay scene work because Nimoy just brought it.

Is the redoing of Kirk's arc in TWOK more overt than the subdued take in TMP? Yeah, because he comes off like a living breathing person this time. And I like that while he's miserable in that he's at least more humble, even if self-doubting. Kirk does want his ship back, but he feels he needs to move on and even tries deflecting Spock's offer to take back the chair. In the end he's notably moved past that finding a new sense of hope...

Which of course is undone by the beginning of TSFS, but that's that movie's issue.

I agree about Kirk's arc. It was done much better in TWOK. However, I think TMP is a particularly good character piece for Spock - We get Spock 2 at the beginning of the movie. Much colder, much more logical, much more strongly rejecting his human half. He sees V'Ger as the perfection of that and through this misconception, he learns to accept himself much more - giving us Spock 3 going into TWOK. We get Spock 4 after his experiences in TVH, and it is this character that ends the movie era - wise, at peace, balancing emotion and logic with minimal effort and seeing the benefits of both.
Spock has the most complete, consistent and meaningful arc in the film series imho, and it begins in TMP.

I expect it was felt that Enterprise's lacklustre performance meant that the wider audience wanted something different to hopeful trek. This is an experiment.

The issue with Enterprise was not it's hopeful outlook (they also did a season long war arc, now that we're comparing). It was fatigue at the same old stuff being churned out. Discovery is an experiment of sorts, but all new shows should be. The main problem with the franchise fatigue of the late 90s/early 00s was that nothing was an experiment. Not on TV, and not at the cinema. It was just same old, same old.

 

[fireproof78]

You miss my point, which is not that DSC should be TNG, but that it should be like TNG...approachable, a fresh start with wide appeal, not something as niche as DS9 (which is not a bad thing, just to be clear.)
It needed a wide audience to pick up the ball, then go for more complexity in the next season or the next show. This isn’t a ‘DSC isn’t TNG/isn’t Trek’ comment, it’s a rumination on whether going heavy, going niche, going narrow audience, is something that will serve the show and the franchise in general well. I think it will be fine for the near future, but long term with Trek, you sort of hope for loftier ambitions that a remembered pop culture thing (once game of thrones ends, unless they get those spin offs flying, it will eventually just be a ‘oh I remember that’ thing for pop culture documentaries. X Files and Twin Peaks are the only things I can think of that cAme back from that)

Fair enough.

But, I think that it is an experiment to foray a little more in the niche and yet, with contemporary production values, is enough to draw in new audiences. Again, it is vaguely reminiscent of "The Expanse" and "Game of Thrones" that it might draw in an audience who might otherwise be put off the "Star Trek" label.

I think DISCO will serve the franchise better than it is given credit more, largely because it is entertaining its audience.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

Some news about reconciling with TOS:

Co-Showrunner Aaron Harberts says the show’s second season—not the “chapter two” we’re getting in January—will be when the show begins to more strongly reconcile its new concepts with the canon of the original Star Trek:

We have ten years until The Original Series comes into play. It is a challenge creatively because we have lots of choices, in terms of how do we reconcile this [Spore] drive? This surrogate daughter of Sarek? How do we reconcile these things the closer we get to The Original Series?

That’s going to be a big discussion that we have in season two. What’s so fun about the character of Michael, just because she hasn’t been spoken about, doesn’t mean she didn’t exist. A lot of the writers on our show are deeply involved in Star Trek, their knowledge is some of the finest around, they really do help us find areas where we can steer around things.
​

@cultcross I think you would really love the finale of Star Trek Continues if you haven't seen it; it makes the Spock arc even more amazing.

 

[jaime]

Some news about reconciling with TOS:

Co-Showrunner Aaron Harberts says the show’s second season—not the “chapter two” we’re getting in January—will be when the show begins to more strongly reconcile its new concepts with the canon of the original Star Trek:

We have ten years until The Original Series comes into play. It is a challenge creatively because we have lots of choices, in terms of how do we reconcile this [Spore] drive? This surrogate daughter of Sarek? How do we reconcile these things the closer we get to The Original Series?

That’s going to be a big discussion that we have in season two. What’s so fun about the character of Michael, just because she hasn’t been spoken about, doesn’t mean she didn’t exist. A lot of the writers on our show are deeply involved in Star Trek, their knowledge is some of the finest around, they really do help us find areas where we can steer around things.
​

@cultcross I think you would really love the finale of Star Trek Continues if you haven't seen it; it makes the Spock arc even more amazing.

Those things are easy to sort. It’s the Neville page wet dream Klingons and their ugly chop shop ships that are the problem.

 

[cultcross]

@cultcross I think you would really love the finale of Star Trek Continues if you haven't seen it; it makes the Spock arc even more amazing.

Odd you should mention it as I'm watching it as we speak

 

[fireproof78]

Those things are easy to sort. It’s the Neville page wet dream Klingons and their ugly chop shop ships that are the problem.

Not really. They are a faction within a large empire. Another faction simply rises up to take their place after they have weakened themselves against the Federation.

 

[Tallguy]

Star Trek.... Created by Gene Roddenberry.

"Theme From Star Trek (TV Series)" by Alexander Courage and Gene Roddenberry.

Now why didn't Gene write any more music?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

"Theme From Star Trek (TV Series)" by Alexander Courage and Gene Roddenberry.

Now why didn't Gene write any more music?

I really, really want to hear someone with good audio editing skills (and time on their hands to burn) put together Kirk speaking the lyrics to the theme song that Roddenberry wrote so he could get half the royalties on it:

Beyond
The rim of the star-light
My love
Is wand’ring in star-flight
I know
He’ll find in star-clustered reaches
Love,
Strange love a star woman teaches.
I know
His journey ends never
His star trek
Will go on forever.
But tell him
While he wanders his starry sea
Remember, remember me.

I actually don't find them as "bad" as many apparently do, and in fact find myself singing them spontaneously whenever I hear the tune. I really love Project: Pimento's loungy vocal arrangement, complete with theremin:

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Anyway, I'm pretty sure that between TOS and TAS (and perhaps the movies), Kirk utters just about every word in the lyric at least once, bar maybe one or two that could be easily "created" through cutting and pasting a syllable here or there, thanks to Shatner's stilted rhythms. For instance, he doesn't ever say "starry" that I can find by searching Chakoteya's site, nor fully "star-clustered"—but he does say "star cluster" in "A Taste Of Armageddon" (TOS), so all that's required is a "d" tacked-on. He even says "star-flight" in "Space Seed" (TOS)! With many you'd have multiple choices to pick from, to best effect. For example, he says "reaches" in "Miri" (TOS), in "A Piece Of The Action" (TOS), and in "One Of Our Planets Is Missing" (TAS). Plus, of course, there's any number of other things Shatner acted in to fill in whatever gaps might be left. (Really shouldn't be many though.)

Assembled over the full-length closing credits music, in combination with the opening monologue edited on in front, the results could be glorious! Anyone remember this gem?

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Sorry, went off topic again. I'm gonna have to look into this further and maybe start a thread over in the TOS/TAS forum.

-MMoM

 

[jaime]

I really, really want to hear someone with good audio editing skills (and time on their hands to burn) put together Kirk speaking the lyrics to the theme song that Roddenberry wrote so he could get half the royalties on it:

Beyond
The rim of the star-light
My love
Is wand’ring in star-flight
I know
He’ll find in star-clustered reaches
Love,
Strange love a star woman teaches.
I know
His journey ends never
His star trek
Will go on forever.
But tell him
While he wanders his starry sea
Remember, remember me.

I actually don't find them as "bad" as many apparently do, and in fact find myself singing them spontaneously whenever I hear the tune. I really love Project: Pimento's loungy vocal arrangement, complete with theremin:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that between TOS and TAS (and perhaps the movies), Kirk utters just about every word in the lyric at least once, bar maybe one or two that could be easily "created" through cutting and pasting a syllable here or there, thanks to Shatner's stilted rhythms. For instance, he doesn't ever say "starry" that I can find by searching Chakoteya's site, nor fully "star-clustered"—but he does say "star cluster" in "A Taste Of Armageddon" (TOS), so all that's required is a "d" tacked-on. He even says "star-flight" in "Space Seed" (TOS)! With many you'd have multiple choices to pick from, to best effect. For example, he says "reaches" in "Miri" (TOS), in "A Piece Of The Action" (TOS), and in "One Of Our Planets Is Missing" (TAS). Plus, of course, there's any number of other things Shatner acted in to fill in whatever gaps might be left. (Really shouldn't be many though.)

Assembled over the full-length closing credits music, in combination with the opening monologue edited on in front, the results could be glorious! Anyone remember this gem?

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Sorry, went off topic again. I'm gonna have to look into this further and maybe start a thread over in the TOS/TAS forum.

-MMoM

That song is an anthem in my household.