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The Groundbreaking Stamets / Culber Kiss

Admiral Sulu

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In the STD episode "Into the Forest I Go" 1x09 brilliant scientist Lieutenant Paul Stamets and the equally brilliant Dr Hugh Culber, played by the distinguished and openly gay actors Anthony Rapp and Wilson Cruz, finally shared their first on-screen kiss.

Star Trek is famous for special first kisses, going back to the first interracial kiss of Captain Kirk and Lt. Uhura in the November 1968 TOS episode "Plato's Stepchildren". Sadly, that kiss was not a romantic consensual kiss, but rather a kiss that was forced telekinetically by Parmen for the perverted amusement of his compatriots. This forced kiss undermined the purity of that breakthrough kiss, which is not to discount that the Kirk and Uhura characters would not have felt affection for each other and their fellow shipmates, or that Nichelle Nichols and William Shatner might also have felt genuine affection for each other as well as professional regard and respect. Historical accounts reflect that Shatner and Nichols were both personally color blind, as certainly Gene Roddenberry was, as evidenced by his casting, and TOS episodes like "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" illustrating the absurdity of the concept of racial superiority.

Much later, in DS9, we have the first Star Trek same gender kiss between Jadzia Dax and Lenara Kahn in the episode "Rejoined". That kiss was billed as a lesbian kiss, perhaps for its sensational value, but was it really? In that episode, the symbionts inhabiting the two current same gender Trill hosts were formerly hosted in male and female Trill while in a former relationship. Thus since it is actually the symbionts having the relationship, more so than the Trill hosts, in the "lesbian kiss" the symbionts were just continuing to express their former love and affection for each other through the bodies that happened to be available to them at the time.

Given these last two examples, of telekinetic coercion, and gender bending symbionts/Trill love, it seems that Star Trek has a history of availing itself of bizarre circumstances in trying to break TV taboos.

In the Stamets/Culber kiss, there is the first same-sex kiss that is neither forced, nor tied to unusual circumstances. It is therefore, the first "honest" same gender kiss between willing and romantically involved partners. Star Trek did not need an excuse this time. However, as a gay man myself, I have to say I was a bit disappointed by this kiss. It was over almost before it began, and was more celebratory in the moment than romantic. It was almost an apologetic kiss, as if were any more offered, there was a fear that many in the audience would be shocked or offended.

In routine TV drama, even as mundane as daily soap operas, we routinely view heterosexual couples engaged in extended romantic exploring kisses, even clearly French kisses. Will we ever be seeing Stamets and Culber engaging in kisses of that kind in their private moments together? I'm not sure the producers are bold enough for that display of affection in a gay couple, even though it is common for non-gay couples, and even though the Jadzia Dax / Lenara Kahn same sex kiss was quite lengthy and animated and passionate (with suitably exulted and romantic musical accompaniment). That is the kind of kiss I was hoping they would have been brave enough to portray, but I think they chickened out here. Perhaps that will happen later?

Also, in mundane heterosexual romance scenes, again even in the daily soaps on broadcast TV, it is common to see couples in amorous play, cuddling naked together, or in a spooning embrace, discretely covered by bedsheets, with perhaps only bare shoulders and arms exposed. Will we ever see Stamets and Culber so embracing and sharing their affection? Are the Discovery producers brave enough for that? Is the audience ready? And what of viewing children - who in spite of ratings, will be watching?

What are your thoughts on the kiss? How did it make you feel?

One last point on the sexual orientation of Stamets, and perhaps I am being oversensitive here or reading something in where nothing was intended... At the end of "Into the Forest I Go" Stamets emerges from the spore chamber in dire distress. Now we don't yet know exactly what went wrong with the displacement-activated spore hub drive this time - whether Stamets was overloaded and burned out, or if Captain Lorca initiated some dangerous action for reasons yet unknown, etc., but it seem Stamets got somehow burned. Is there some connection between his sexual orientation, and some sort of "punishment" for that orientation? Am I reading too much into that? They made such a big deal of his sexual orientation this episode, and his distress, I just have to wonder.

One more point on symbiont / Trill gender bending. In the TNG episode "The Host", Dr. Beverly Crusher falls in love with Ambassador Odan, who she only learns later is a Trill/symbiont. When The Trill is injured and the symbiont removed, and after a brief hosting by Commander Riker, the symbiont is later transferred to a new host. When that new Trill host appears in Beverly Crusher's office, while she still feels to love she felt for Odan, she is shocked that the new Trill host is a woman, Kareel. Kareel is a lovely woman, but this is too much for poor Dr. Beverly (as Odan called her), whereupon the following touching exchange takes place:

KAREEL: Doctor Beverly, could we talk for a moment?
CRUSHER: You should be sleeping. You need to rest.
KAREEL: I've never felt better, except once or twice. My poor Beverly. This has been so hard for you. I want to thank you for your caring, for your standing by me.
CRUSHER: I congratulate you. You averted a war that would have cost many lives.
KAREEL: Yes. It seems as though everything has turned out for the best. And yes, I am still Odan, and I still love you. I cannot imagine that ever changing.
CRUSHER: I am glad that you're all right.
KAREEL: Is there to be nothing more?
CRUSHER: Perhaps it is a human failing, but we are not accustomed to these kinds of changes. I can't keep up. How long will you have this host? What would the next one be? I can't live with that kind of uncertainty. Perhaps, someday, our ability to love won't be so limited.
KAREEL: I understand.
CRUSHER: Odan, I do love you. Please remember that.
(Kareel takes Beverly's hand and kisses her wrist)
KAREEL: I will never forget you.

I suspect that a good portion of the Discovery audience may feel as Dr, Crusher does, wrestling with the limitations she feels she must place on the expression of her love, facing the prospects of intimacy with one of her own gender. Whether a symbiont is vested with a particular gender, is never disclosed. However, I think the symbiont, as an animating force of the Trill body, is in part intended to be a metaphor for a soul.

As Beverly sensitively notes, "Perhaps, someday, our ability to love won't be so limited," and I think that was a most artful way for the writers to impart the hope that we may one day be able to move beyond the current limitations in our thinking about the nature of love and its expressions.
 
I liked it. Doesn't feel groundbreaking though to me because I have seen plenty of gay kissing on tv now. TV has become more diverse and open to all kinds of love. At least it seems to be in the shows I watch. If this was 2000 or something it might have felt more groundbreaking to me. My only issue isn't with the kiss but that Culber feels kind of underdeveloped at the moment. The actors have good chemistry which helps but they do need to develop the romance more.

Jason
 
going back to the first interracial kiss of Captain Kirk and Lt. Uhura in the November 1968 TOS episode "Plato's Stepchildren". Sadly, that kiss was not a romantic consensual kiss,
Nor was it the first interacial kiss on TV.

I wonder if in a few decades Trekkies will be all, "Star Trek had the first gay kiss on TV!" ;)
 
Nor was it the first interacial kiss on TV.

I wonder if in a few decades Trekkies will be all, "Star Trek had the first gay kiss on TV!" ;)

Actually Trek will be known for having both the first and second gay kisses on tv. First Dax/Khan and then Stamets/Culber. :)

Jason
 
I think "Star Trek" can be happy if anyone even remembers Disco in several decades. Probably as a kind of "team Knight Rider" and the other forgotten spin offs of the first show.
 
ai dont think it was groundbreaking. homosexuals have been sharing kisses on tv for a bit now.
 
It's "groundbreaking" for Star Trek, which is kind of sad, because it's a few decades too late to be groundbreaking for television. While, as mentioned, Trek did not have the first interracial kiss, it was at least on the leading edge of that trend and could therefore be said to have made a brave choice and possibly made a difference in normalizing interracial relationships among the public. Trek long ago dropped the ball on being on the leading edge of LGBTQ issues by always obfuscating them behind eighteen levels of treknobbable metaphor or alien allegory. Though given the number of bigots that come crawling out from under their rocks here and elsewhere anytime a gay character is even mentioned in Trek, we clearly still have a long way to go, so it is still noteworthy in that respect.

One last point on the sexual orientation of Stamets, and perhaps I am being oversensitive here or reading something in where nothing was intended... At the end of "Into the Forest I Go" Stamets emerges from the spore chamber in dire distress. Now we don't yet know exactly what went wrong with the displacement-activated spore hub drive this time - whether Stamets was overloaded and burned out, or if Captain Lorca initiated some dangerous action for reasons yet unknown, etc., but it seem Stamets got somehow burned. Is there some connection between his sexual orientation, and some sort of "punishment" for that orientation? Am I reading too much into that? They made such a big deal of his sexual orientation this episode, and his distress, I just have to wonder.
Yes, I think you're reading too much into that. He had just made a heroic 137 jumps in a row in rapid succession, when even one jump has been shown to be extremely physically and mentally taxing, and then volunteered for one more to get the crew home faster. It was like running a dozen marathons back to back, anyone would be exhausted and in distress from that. Not that it makes a direct comparison, but the tardigrade was taxed by jumping, and so was Burnham, so it's been shown to be difficult for anyone, even nigh indestructible macroscopic creatures. As far as his excruciating mental "punishment", that was as a result of jumping to that alternate universe or timeline and being thrown off his normal prime universe settings, so to speak. He's connected to the universe(s) spanning mycelial network and got ripped away to somewhere else all of a sudden.
 
Absolutely nothing groundbreaking in this kiss except it took Trek so long to do it. Everyone wants to act like trek is some bastion of social causes but the truth is Trek has been pretty conservative in the majority of its life. The crew of the TNG and later series were the most sexually repressed, conservative people ever lounging around listening to classical music and sniffing their own farts.

Picard should have been friends with benefits with Crusher and Riker is treated as some sort of gigolo when in reality my nerdy self has gotten more ass in the last 7 years then he did in the show.
 
It is nice that Trek finally climbed aboard, and I won't take away from Discovery for that because it isn't the show's fault what those before it did. But I can't say it even registered with me on first watch, as it is now so normal to see on TV. I'm actually much more excited to see Trek do a romance that doesn't make me want to cringe.
 
Loved the kiss. It wasn't groundbreaking in any way, but it's nice that Star Trek finally got there. Come to think of it, it's kind of cool that with the viewership at large something like a gay kiss isn't even registering any more.

At the same time, though, it kinda rubs me the wrong way that it's also the first Trek episode to show a female breast. Not that I don't consider nudity a positive progressive step (because I do!), but because I fear the episode might be remembered more for that.
 
Loved the kiss. It wasn't groundbreaking in any way, but it's nice that Star Trek finally got there. Come to think of it, it's kind of cool that with the viewership at large something like a gay kiss isn't even registering any more.

At the same time, though, it kinda rubs me the wrong way that it's also the first Trek episode to show a female breast. Not that I don't consider nudity a positive progressive step (because I do!), but because I fear the episode might be remembered more for that.

Does it count though if it's covered in alien skin covering? In fact I even wonder if it was a real breast but a fake one made out of plastic or whatever is used in making fake body parts.

Jason
 
I didn't really register it. It was a quick thing.
The bathroom scene they had together was more impressive and said something about their relationship more than a kiss did.
 
Does it count though if it's covered in alien skin covering? In fact I even wonder if it was a real breast but a fake one made out of plastic or whatever is used in making fake body parts.
You should CSI that shit, Jason. Not here, to head off your next thread brainstorm, but in the comfort of your own home.
 
Just for the record, I'm pretty certain that there have been three female-female kisses in Trek history.

1. The kiss between Jadzia Dax and her former host's lover in Rejoined
2. A kiss between mirror Kira and mirror Ezri Tigan(no Dax) in The Emperor's New Cloak. While Nana Visitor always played the Intendant as pansexual, Tigan was essentially said to be a lesbian in this episode
3. In the Voyager episode Warlord, Kes is possessed by a male consciousness who kisses his female lover. Of course, this could be argued to not be gay, but he also agrees to a marriage of convenience with a man, hence some sexual fluidity is implied in the episode.

In addition, the DS9 episode Chimera implies Odo is essentially pansexual, due to his relationship/linking with a "male" changeling. Of course, changling gender is only nominal, but the gay metaphor in this episode was very obvious.
 
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