Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time
- Thread starter Sci-fi fan
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But not out on the Final Frontier, which always seemed to be running low on dilithium crystals, pergium, desperately-needed medical supplies, grain, and even salt tablets . . . . .
It's perhaps worth noting that TOS never visited 23rd century Earth (or at least not until the movies). I don't remember STAR TREK being a show about a "post-scarcity" society. I remember a show about remote frontier colonies and science outposts, where the Klingons and the Federation were constantly competing for vital resources, like M-Class planets.
But not out on the Final Frontier, which always seemed to be running low on dilithium crystals, pergium, desperately-needed medical supplies, grain, and even salt tablets . . . . .
It's perhaps worth noting that TOS never visited 23rd century Earth (or at least not until the movies). I don't remember STAR TREK being a show about a "post-scarcity" society. I remember a show about remote frontier colonies and science outposts, where the Klingons and the Federation were constantly competing for vital resources, like M-Class planets.
I think there was a sentiment in DS9, VOY and TNG they tried to push. Mostly through dialogue about "mainstream" federation life. But you are right, this was not the executed case in many examples.
I think that when DS9 violated his vision all bets were off and at times that show was every bit as dark.
I'll never forget the Jake episode in the war zone with the Federation soldier who ran from battle, or the episode where Nog lost his leg. Dark anyone? Enterprise season three was dark too.
I happen to like it. Some don't and I get it. You want a light hearted form of Trek then at least you have Orville.
I'll never forget the Jake episode in the war zone with the Federation soldier who ran from battle, or the episode where Nog lost his leg. Dark anyone? Enterprise season three was dark too.
I happen to like it. Some don't and I get it. You want a light hearted form of Trek then at least you have Orville.
And DS9 in particular took pains to stress that life was far from "utopian" way out in deep space and in troubled hot spots like Bajor. "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise," etc.
And, honestly, TOS was darker than people than remember. Heck, "The Cage" begins with Pike depressed because he lost a landing party in a massacre--and ends with poor, doomed, disfigured Vina left behind on Talos IV. And the second pilot had Kirk killing his best friend . . .
Not exactly feel-good material.
And even then, there was the military takeover that almost came to fruition.
But not out on the Final Frontier, which always seemed to be running low on dilithium crystals, pergium, desperately-needed medical supplies, grain, and even salt tablets . . . . .
It's perhaps worth noting that TOS never visited 23rd century Earth (or at least not until the movies). I don't remember STAR TREK being a show about a "post-scarcity" society. I remember a show about remote frontier colonies and science outposts, where the Klingons and the Federation were constantly competing for vital resources, like M-Class planets.
The Federation itself is. No one in the Federation needs money to provide for their needs. No one hungers or is homeless. Sure this gets a little fuzzy when it comes to the outer edges of Federations space. But I don't think Picard was lying when he told Lily that there was no money whence he came from. Kirk and Co too didn't know exactly what to do with money when they landed in 1986.
I think "Mudd's Women" and "The Devil in the Dark" disagree with your views.
And DS9 in particular took pains to stress that life was far from "utopian" way out in deep space and in troubled hot spots like Bajor. "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise," etc.
And, honestly, TOS was darker than people than remember. Heck, "The Cage" begins with Pike depressed because he lost a landing party in a massacre--and ends with poor, doomed, disfigured Vina left behind on Talos IV. And the second pilot had Kirk killing his best friend . . .
Not exactly feel-good material.
In both versions of The Cage/The Menagerie Vina ends up seemingly happy.
Getting Mitchell out of the way freed that spot up for Spock. That worked out well in the end.
Details. Like the R. in Kirks name. Chekov meeting Khan on the Enterprise. The Enterprise being 20 years old in Star Trek III.
Kind of important.
Something between Mitchell and Kirk.
Chekov wasn't yet serving on the bridge. We weren't with Khan every moment he was on the Enterprise. They could've met while taking a piss in the men's room at the same time.
Close to the age of the refit. Which Will Decker calls an almost totally new Enterprise.
Workarounds come with the territory when being a Trek fan.
The fact of the matter is that someone like Mudd wasn't smuggling women because he was bored. There was a payday involved. Folks aren't going to go sit in the bowels of a planet doing the dirty work just for the Hell of it. There was something there to be gained financially. Kirk even mentions them becoming insanely rich. Cyrano Jones barters with the bartender for credits when trying to sell Tribbles.
They may have later retconned no money into the franchise, but it is pretty clear that in TOS there was a financial system that one could profit from.
That's pathetic.Here's a fan expressing themself in 1980, from one of the Best of Trek books:
"But there they are, ridges and all, thirty feet high and in living color, so once again it is up to the fans to correct a discrepancy in Star Trek"
Just, so dramatic.
That tickled my fancyOk here's a "NEW" Vulcan : Look at the ears!
And 25 years later (or so) they did basically what the first suggestion was for the fan correction.
The question now will be, what will they do for the DCS Klingons? Because that will need to be addressed, if no other reason but to apologies to the actors that had to muddle through their speeches with out being able to emote properly in Klingon due to their makeup and teeth. The production did not have to go that far just because they had more money than they had for a 1980s TV production, which itself was based on the makeup from Star Trek III's Klingons...a motion picture production. They wanted the Klingons to look even more alien. Why? Why go that far and make the actors not able to act through their prosthetics in Klingon, when the previous makeup allowed for them to act. And recall that not only do Klingons still need to be able to breed with humans (even if it is difficult) to produce at least one main character from VOY and several other characters from TNG and DS9, but they are also suppose be able to either pass off as humans, or still be recovering from the ENT era augment virus in some parts of the Empire.
The last problem of course is one that was never really addressed much in any Star Trek....the Kling Empire is an interstellar empire of same reasonably large size. What other races are in the Empire and what do they do for the Empire. All we ever see are Klingons, or what are claimed to be Klingons. Is the Klingon species in the trillions spread across their space? All worlds are now Klingon worlds? Purity of the Empire, as oppose to the multi-species Federation?
The question now will be, what will they do for the DCS Klingons? Because that will need to be addressed, if no other reason but to apologies to the actors that had to muddle through their speeches with out being able to emote properly in Klingon due to their makeup and teeth. The production did not have to go that far just because they had more money than they had for a 1980s TV production, which itself was based on the makeup from Star Trek III's Klingons...a motion picture production. They wanted the Klingons to look even more alien. Why? Why go that far and make the actors not able to act through their prosthetics in Klingon, when the previous makeup allowed for them to act. And recall that not only do Klingons still need to be able to breed with humans (even if it is difficult) to produce at least one main character from VOY and several other characters from TNG and DS9, but they are also suppose be able to either pass off as humans, or still be recovering from the ENT era augment virus in some parts of the Empire.
The last problem of course is one that was never really addressed much in any Star Trek....the Kling Empire is an interstellar empire of same reasonably large size. What other races are in the Empire and what do they do for the Empire. All we ever see are Klingons, or what are claimed to be Klingons. Is the Klingon species in the trillions spread across their space? All worlds are now Klingon worlds? Purity of the Empire, as oppose to the multi-species Federation?
No - supported by dialogue across many TOS Episodes:
TOS - "Mudd's Women":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm
TOS - "Errand of Mercy":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/27.htm
TOS - "I Mudd":
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/41.htm
^^^
And yes, I can find MANY MORE examples of the Federation and it's citizens using money (aka Federation Credits) in more episodes. So sorry no, it's canon that the Federation used money in the 23rd century. It was TNG that tried to retcon that fact.
Yeah, but I don't think that was intended to be the takeaway there.
"Good news, Spock! You'll get more screen time later. Shame about Mitchell and Dehner, though . . . "
And, seriously, let's look at season one of TOS. Just off the top of my head: "Mantrap" is about McCoy discovering that his former sweetheart has been killed and replaced by a Salt Vampire--and ends with Kirk lamenting that they had to kill the last of its species. "Charlie X" ends in with poor, tragic Charlie doomed to live apart from other human beings for the rest of his life. "Balance of Terror" ends with Lt. Martine weeping over the death of her fiancee on their wedding day. "Conscience of the King" ends with poor, crazy Lenore being shipped off to a mental hospital after she accidentally kills her own father, the guilt-ridden war criminal. And need I mention Edith Keeler?
But STAR TREK didn't get "dark" until DS9?
(And none of those episodes were about life in a "post-scarcity" economy.)
But STAR TREK didn't get "dark" until DS9?
Well, the lighting on the station was noticeably dimmer than say, the Enterprise-D.
And even in Season 3 of TOS and in one of the absolute worst episodes of that series the children living at a Federation research outpost lose all their parents to the Gorgan entity and proceed to not only bury their grief but follow their new benefactor on a mission to destroy the population of another Federation world. The episode concludes with the children viewing images of their parents' grave markers and crying in sadness and anguish over losing their loved ones.
