Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[Feron]

The difference is Lorca is supposed to be a key cog in the Federation's war effort, not someone staring at a panel a few hours at a time to get experience.

In the real world, one of the most colorblind of professions is that of the modern military.

People rise through the ranks there because of their training, ability, and hard work. Their skin tone, ethnic identity, etc. are not a factor in their promotions.

In the series that some folks are touting as the torchbearer for Roddenberry's progressive "vision" of a better future, we see the actual progress made within real world militaries being pushed aside so that untrained children can serve on the bridge of the most famous ship in Starfleet merely because Picard was chummy with the child's parents.

Wesley Crusher was not disadvantaged. If his dream was to serve in Starfleet, he could have done it the way that all of the people that were pushed aside for him did. He could have trained at the Academy and worked his way up the ranks. But no, he can't do that. He is too special. He has friends in high places that can get him where he wants to go without having to work for it.

As I said above, Wesley Crusher is a poster-child for "priviledge". The allegedly better ethics of TNG ring pretty hollow to me.

 

[BillJ]

In the real world, one of the most colorblind of professions is that of the modern military.

But this isn't the real world, it is fantasy. Where a mutineer can steal a ship and get off without even a slap on the wrist, a cadet can go to captain, and a child is allowed to put in hours at the helm of the flagship.

Like anything else, it comes down to what a person thinks goes too far. But there is no "correct" answer to any of it. Just our opinions.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

This is also a testament to how much Roddenberry's Vision was BS and really isn't able to stand up to such a long discussion.

Yeah I don't buy into the whole rod is god thing.

From what I hear about him and his vision, we're better off without it in totality. Great imagination that guy, just simply stupid rule book

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Yeah I don't buy into the whole rod is god thing.

From what I hear about him and his vision, we're better off without it in totality. Great imagination that guy, just simply stupid rule book

I agree. He was amazing with ideas, but needed people around him to edit those ideas, as well as present them. It's been well-documented that he wasn't even able to pitch the idea to NBC in the first place because he was a horrible speaker.

Gene's Vision was the product of Coon, Fontana, Justman, Solow, etc.

 

[BillJ]

I agree. He was amazing with ideas, but needed people around him to edit those ideas, as well as present them. It's been well-documented that he wasn't even able to pitch the idea to NBC in the first place because he was a horrible speaker.

Gene's Vision was the product of Coon, Fontana, Justman, Solow, etc.

Well "Gene's Vision" wasn't really a thing during TOS. And there's no doubt the man was a hard worker and could rewrite a script. But, he was also an adulterer, drug user, thief, possible rapist...

So I have a complicated perspective on the man.

 

[fireproof78]

This is also a testament to how much Roddenberry's Vision was BS and really isn't able to stand up to such a long discussion.

Exactly.

The difference is Lorca is supposed to be a key cog in the Federation's war effort, not someone staring at a panel a few hours at a time to get experience.

Wesley also saved the Enterprise how many times? That's a little different than just "logging hours."

We see a lot of "key cogs" in Federation war efforts that are unpleasant. Lorca presents another take.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Well "Gene's Vision" wasn't really a thing during TOS. And there's no doubt the man was a hard worker and could rewrite a script. But, he was also an adulterer, drug user, thief, possible rapist...

So I have a complicated perspective on the man.

I have a rather multi-dimensional view of him, too. And I agree about the TOS era. All this vision stuff happened during the start of the convention era.

 

[BillJ]

Wesley also saved the Enterprise how many times? That's a little different than just "logging hours."

But we can't exactly fault Picard for his people being incompetent. And Wesley could have just as easily been written to save the ship even if he wasn't sitting at the helm.

 

[Feron]

But this isn't the real world, it is fantasy. Where a mutineer can steal a ship and get off without even a slap on the wrist, a cadet can go to captain, and a child is allowed to put in hours at the helm of the flagship.

Like anything else, it comes down to what a person thinks goes too far. But there is no "correct" answer to any of it. Just our opinions.

Oh indeed I know that this is a fantasy. But in the context of this thread, where the OP is upset that Discovery allegedly doesn't adhere to Gene's great "progressive vision" of an idealistic utopian future -- that in the series that many are portraying as the great exemplar for how Star Trek should be done, that in fact it is less progressive than the real world today.

In the real world today, Wesley Crusher getting placed to serve on the bridge of the Enterprise would be denounced and possibly treated as a crime.

And as I said upthread, the big difference between Discovery and TNG is that the morally questionable things done on Discovery are treated as such, while the horrid things done on TNG were treated as wonderful.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

And as I said upthread, the big difference between Discovery and TNG is that the morally questionable things done on Discovery are treated as such, while the horrid things done on TNG were treated as wonderful.

couple examples of the TNG end?

 

[fireproof78]

But we can't exactly fault Picard for his people being incompetent. And Wesley could have just as easily been written to save the ship even if he wasn't sitting at the helm.

I can't? Who can I fault then? The Academy? If I wasn't performing at my job, my boss would send me to training. If I still didn't improve, I'd be fired.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

...in the series that many are portraying as the great exemplar for how Star Trek should be done, that in fact it is less progressive than the real world today.

TNG, as much as I love it, did not really portray a progressive future. White men still ran everything, the only women on board were in caregiving roles, except one who became phaser fodder (and even that woman had to have her toughness explained by where she grew up; she couldn't have just been a smart, confident, badass woman), LGBTQ issues could only be explored by allegory and good old western values always saved the day.

It actually doesn't surprise me that until DSC there were Trek fans who were homophobic and racist. After all, to them, Geordi was just fine as long as he stuck to his place down below, and let the white men do all the real work, and no one was gay, ever, at all.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

I felt sullied even typing about that.

 

[fireproof78]

TNG, as much as I love it, did not really portray a progressive future. White men still ran everything, the only women on board were in caregiving roles, except one who became phaser fodder (and even that woman had to have her toughness explained by where she grew up; she couldn't have just been a smart, confident, badass woman), LGBTQ issues could only be explored by allegory and good old western values always saved the day.

It actually doesn't surprise me that until DSC there were Trek fans who were homophobic and racist. After all, to them, Geordi was just fine as long as he stuck to his place down below, and let the white men do all the real work, and no one was gay, ever, at all.

VOY unfortunately carried that forward for a time, with "Blood Fever"

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

VOY unfortunately carried that forward for a time, with "Blood Fever"

You mean the idea of two men competing for a woman who was basically their prize?

VGR also was just fine for alt-righters to watch. No gays even by allegory, and the only black person was also an alien, who wasn't really in the center of the action much anyway, while most of the action centered around Paris, the Doctor and Seven, who was a babe who would have fit in well in the Third Reich.

 

[Noname Given]

The key difference is that Lorca is not being portrayed as being a hero, Wesley and Picard most certainly were portrayed as such.

I like ST: D quite a bit; but that said, there are MANY words I could use to describe Lorca and "Hero" would NOT be one of them - nor do I feel the character is being portrayed as a Hero in any sense.

Star Fleet Command has given him Command of a vessel using wildly unproven and dangerous technology because the war is going very badly for the Federation, and they want to end it ASAP without having to surrender. Captain Gabriel Lorca is:

1) Definitely considered expendable. (Again Starfleet's attempt to get this Spore Drive tech is a 'hail mary'.)
2) His unorthodox actions and decisions are still being tolerated because so far they have yielded gains in the war effort.

And if anything sleeping with an Admiral produced a situation that (if said Admiral survives to report to Command) will lead to loss of his Command and further psychiatric evaluation.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

I like ST: D quite a bit; but that said, there are MANY words I could use to describe Lorca and "Hero" would NOT be one of them - nor do I feel the character is being portrayed as a Hero in any sense.

That's what Feron was saying too.

 

[Noname Given]

That's what Feron was saying too.

Ack you're right my bad - misread that sentence.

 

[fireproof78]

You mean the idea of two men competing for a woman who was basically their prize?

VGR also was just fine for alt-righters to watch. No gays even by allegory, and the only black person was also an alien, who wasn't really in the center of the action much anyway, while most of the action centered around Paris, the Doctor and Seven, who was a babe who would have fit in well in the Third Reich.

Um, in "Blood Fever" Torres fights for her own honor, while her superior officers watch.

 

[Feron]

couple examples of the TNG end?

In the real world, if a military commander gave a plum position to an untrained 15 year old child, especially in peacetime, and therefore demoted or held back other people who had actually gone to the Academy and spent years training for the position, they would quite possibly face criminal charges over that.

In the "progressive utopia" of TNG, giving the children of your pals high profile jobs was treated as something sweet and wonderful.