The writers of this show certainly have.
THE ORVILLE: S1, E7: "MAJORITY RULE"
- Thread starter Mudd
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The writers of this show certainly have.
IDK. The number of stories about democracy and bureaucracy gone awry are too numerous to say that this episode copied any one source. You can see elements of TOS, Twilight Zone, Shirley Jackson, Franz Kafka, Dickens, etc., in this episode.
I liked the episode, and many here have spoken of its strengths, which I pretty much agree with. I did, however, have a problem with how eager Lysella was to help the crew, even when she seemed to believe in her own planet's system of justice. A short scene, or even a few lines of dialogue, where Mercer points out to her that uninformed democracy is worse than no democracy (or some similar distillation of the message) would have made this seem more natural.
And then there's this:
As I said, overall a good episode with some irritating flaws.
And then there's this:
I think the writers and the folks who designed the vote-tallying displays didn't think this through. There must be some way of reconciling the up vs. down votes. Otherwise, there's no real reason for up votes at all - and someone who leads a busy life could have 200,000,000 up votes, but slowly accumulate the down votes until he reaches the 1,000,000 threshold for arrest. Ideally there should just be a single continuous tally of up minus down, but at least there needs to be a periodic cancelling out, and perhaps an immediate one after an apology tour.
I disagree on this point. The Orville is not a big important ship like the heavy cruisers. It does not have a cream-of-the-crop crew, and this is often explicitly stated by Mercer and others. LaMarr was being a jerk, and was rightly chastised and ordered to stop it by his superior officer (as should have happened to Malloy much sooner in "Krill"). This is totally realistic.
As I said, overall a good episode with some irritating flaws.
Does that mean that I'm smart enough to serve on Union heavy cruisers?
We never see any down votes get reversed. The down and up votes just keep going up. So, I think the simplest explanation is that the badges are a running total of all the down and up votes you get in your entire life from 18 onward. So the down votes never get reversed. If I am right, then yes, Lamar was in trouble since he was only 7 votes away from getting a lobotomy. It was definitely time to get him out of there.
Their society probably voted that 10 million was the right number, high enough that it would adequately represent someone who did so many egregious things in the eyes of society that they deserved the correction. After all, 10 million down votes is a lot. The only way to get that many would be to either do one really really bad thing that the whole nation hates you or be a serial repeat offender that keeps racking up millions of down votes. In both instances, society probably feels that you deserve correction. Even the lady with 500,000 down votes was a far cry from 10 million. I suspect most people probably never get anywhere close to the 10 million. Also, keep in mind that it is a voting system that includes both down and up votes. So if 1 million people vote and you get 50% down votes, you get 500,000 extra down votes and an extra 500,000 up votes added to your badge too. Both votes get added to your badge. So the up votes do reduce the number of potential down votes, a person might get.
I also got the impression that the general population did not really know what the "correction" procedure really was. The term "correction" has a very Orwellian innocence to it. People probably just assumed that it is a somewhat benign process that makes people behave and be good, rather than the painful and inhumane procedure that it really is.
I don't see this working out. Think about it in the context of our culture, where lots of people on Amazon downvote books by politicians for partisan reasons. As soon as the culture began displaying "factions" each would begin to downvote people from the other faction, until lots of prominent people would need "correction." Thus upvotes have to factor in somehow.
well, yes, but the episode never showed us anything that would indicate that up votes work like that. To fix this issue, I would make arrest and correction be based on the difference between down votes and up votes, not down votes alone. That would properly take into account the effect of up votes as a mitigating factor.
To me, this was a really good episode. It touched on quite a few things that are current (and sadly will probably always stay in society now, like Likes/Dislikes, taking video of anything that's happening and uploading it, media helping some videos go viral, court of public opinion, etc.) Yes, it's creepy and scary, with privacy now being at a premium, but the show made us see what's going on and how it can be changed (just turn the damn TV, phone or Feed off!) In fact, I'm going to have my daughter watch this one, as it will be something that will ring true for her.
Another part I like is how Mercer figures out not to go in for the rescue of LaMarr, but to do it from the inside. It's non-conventional thinking and skirts the rules in a way that some may not think about doing.
As far as LaMarr doing something that dumb, even when being told to stop by a superior officer, my dad has stories from the Air Force when guys would just start doing something dumb, and get so caught up in their mind about it that getting short of slapping them to stop was needed. And that was in Korea during the Korean War. Where someone like that getting caught up in doing something stupid could get you all killed. So yes, it's quite possible.
So far, this episode is one of the best for me, along with "If The Stars Should Appear". TOS style, lesson taught in an adventure format, makes you think. It works.
Another part I like is how Mercer figures out not to go in for the rescue of LaMarr, but to do it from the inside. It's non-conventional thinking and skirts the rules in a way that some may not think about doing.
As far as LaMarr doing something that dumb, even when being told to stop by a superior officer, my dad has stories from the Air Force when guys would just start doing something dumb, and get so caught up in their mind about it that getting short of slapping them to stop was needed. And that was in Korea during the Korean War. Where someone like that getting caught up in doing something stupid could get you all killed. So yes, it's quite possible.
So far, this episode is one of the best for me, along with "If The Stars Should Appear". TOS style, lesson taught in an adventure format, makes you think. It works.
This was a really interesting episode, just the whole concept of a society that is centred around Like and Dislike buttons. I often see it posted here on this forum when some of our less than pleasant posters post various forms of screed that the majority of don't agree with "I wish we had a Dislike button." Can you imagine what it would be like if our society ran on this method? Or just Trek BBS alone. Hell, just imagining my daily life if people were able to downvote me towards a lobotomy is kind of disturbing, I work retail but I don't exactly embrace the "customer is always right/pays your paychecks/your lord and master" mentality. I'd have a disturbingly high number of Dislikes. It really is a fascinating concept to ponder, and in the end the best science fiction is the type that reflects the world we live in gets you thinking. Anyone who thinks of this show as a "second-rate Star Trek parody" needs to sit down and watch this episode. This is the closest thing to sophisticated science fiction I've seen on TV in a long time.
I also like the fact that unlike any Treks (even TOS, if we're honest) this wasn't about showing the people the error of their ways and shutting down the Feed and making them learn to get along. At the end the society is still the same, the only thing is our friend from the planet has apparently learned to second-guess the system. I also like the creativity of essentially "spamming" the Feed to get John freed. I also like they showed how advanced and powerful Orville's computers were, in that they were able to instantly digitally manipulate John's childhood photo to make him look fat or create a video of him in the planet's military uniform playing with his dog. People always complain that the "magic technology" robs Star Trek of its drama, especially in the 24th century. But this proves that with good writing, you can have "magic technology" in a way which enhances the story rather than destroying it. Just because this ending came about because of technological magic didn't make it any less dramatic.
This episode made for a damn fine hour of television.
I also like the fact that unlike any Treks (even TOS, if we're honest) this wasn't about showing the people the error of their ways and shutting down the Feed and making them learn to get along. At the end the society is still the same, the only thing is our friend from the planet has apparently learned to second-guess the system. I also like the creativity of essentially "spamming" the Feed to get John freed. I also like they showed how advanced and powerful Orville's computers were, in that they were able to instantly digitally manipulate John's childhood photo to make him look fat or create a video of him in the planet's military uniform playing with his dog. People always complain that the "magic technology" robs Star Trek of its drama, especially in the 24th century. But this proves that with good writing, you can have "magic technology" in a way which enhances the story rather than destroying it. Just because this ending came about because of technological magic didn't make it any less dramatic.
This episode made for a damn fine hour of television.
Well now, those kinds of speeches and the responses to them are anything but natural.
McFarlane takes a charmingly ground-level view of human community and culture in this show. Lysella is just a youngster who "believes" in what's familiar to her because she's never really thought about it and because everyone she knows does it. And she's psychologically labile enough for excitement and novelty to easily overcome whatever unexamined objections she has to the unexpected. She likes these folks. She likes John! She's on a spaceship!
We're shown early on that she ups or downs people based on whim, gossip and instinct. She judges her friends based on their social media profiles. I find both her motives and behavior troublingly plausible.
Hey, he's a sailor who got off the boat in a new port for a few hours. They're damned lucky he doesn't have to go to sickbay when he comes back.
Interesting that they never raised the point that Lamar was humping the statue as part of the conversation he was having with Alara about her boyfriend grinding her during dancing. So the incident was taken completely out of context. Lamar was never intending to disrespect the statue but was merely using it as a prop to make his point about Alara's boyfriend. Would it have made a difference? Of course, if he had explained the full context, it would have implicated Alara too and she might have gotten arrested.
This felt very SLIDERS to me.
No matter, it was well written. McFarlane should have been writing Trek scripts or should have been given a crack at a new Trek series (for broadcast networks).
No matter, it was well written. McFarlane should have been writing Trek scripts or should have been given a crack at a new Trek series (for broadcast networks).
Somehow I don't think that would have helped. "Sorry officer, I sodomized the Mother Teresa figure at Tussauds because we were talking about 'Deep Throat...'"
Probably. But I'm much happier he did The Orville. He has a freedom with it that simply wouldn't be possible with Star Trek.
Seemed to me like Meow Meow Beanz ep of Community.
The episode worked very well as satire.
One of the many things about the show that works if you think of it as a comedy but falls flat if you try to think about it seriously.
Thing about Trek is that it's established as something you should be able to think about seriously. So if it were Trek the dumbness and immaturity of the show would be a bigger problem.
The episode worked very well as satire.
One of the many things about the show that works if you think of it as a comedy but falls flat if you try to think about it seriously.
Thing about Trek is that it's established as something you should be able to think about seriously. So if it were Trek the dumbness and immaturity of the show would be a bigger problem.
This is true. The only crying need for more Star Trek is in the CBS boardroom.
All very good points. I wasn't suggesting that the preachy exchange itself would be natural - most dialogue in TV and movies isn't. What I meant was that I wasn't quite buying her ready assistance. The dialogue I suggested would have helped - as would a more blatant indication of her being caught up in the excitement. This wasn't a major flaw, just something that felt awkward. YMMV.Well now, those kinds of speeches and the responses to them are anything but natural.
McFarlane takes a charmingly ground-level view of human community and culture in this show. Lysella is just a youngster who "believes" in what's familiar to her because she's never really thought about it and because everyone she knows does it. And she's psychologically labile enough for excitement and novelty to easily overcome whatever unexamined objections she has to the unexpected. She likes these folks. She likes John! She's on a spaceship!
We're shown early on that she ups or downs people based on whim, gossip and instinct. She judges her friends based on their social media profiles. I find both her motives and behavior troublingly plausible.
At least I wasn't asking for Mercer to go into "Risk is our Business" mode - though I would like to see that someday.
But you see, that's basically the point. No one knew the context, someone saw someone else humping a statue of a legendary folk hero, they recorded, shared it, it went viral, and now John has the whole world judging him, and hating him just for a video of his actions taken completely out of context. The episode is just as much commentary on the pitfalls of social media's prominence in our own society which has led to uncomfortable situations, and in some unfortunate cases, truly tragic ones. It's like Lysella said at the end, no one tries to verify the facts. So even if the whole story were told, no one would really bother listening anyway.
Look at it this way, if someone were recorded humping a statue of Abraham Lincoln or someone and the video went viral, and the person was vilified all over YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and he tried to say he was only making a joke about his friend's ex, would that really make much of a difference?
I agree as well. Had this been the Trek series MacFarlane wanted to make (and he did say he wanted to go back to the TOS feel), he could completely have done this, a ship in space, exploring new worlds, not mention anything about anyone else in the Trek continuity, and he'd still be raked over the coals for not adhering to canon.
