Discovery and "The Orville" Comparisons

[galad2003]

thats what i think is its biggest problem.

i personally cannot take a show that seriously when the ship and its missions are staffed by people this stupid. i can find it funny.... but cant take it seriously.

say whatever you want about MASH but they were competent.

What? The colonel in Mash was a complete idiot as well as the rich Dr. (Sorry I am not old enough to know Mash that well).

Every comedy of the Mash type relies on people doing things that would get the fired in real life and there is always a certain amount of buffoonery. Besides if you think real life soldiers act serious 100% of the time, you are wrong. When people ask me what the Navy was like I always say the most accurate Navy movie was Down Periscope.

 

[Mudd]

I found I enjoyed Star Trek a lot more when I quit taking it seriously.

Yeah, it's really not worth investing the kind of solemn expectations in it that fans do. It's become very conservative, conventional entertainment that relies upon reputation, brand loyalty and product recognition to cut through the media noise and attract attention, same as every other franchise (these things being much of the very value and reliability of franchise entertainment).

Don't expect too much of it and it's still diverting. Sometimes.

 

[BillJ]

What? The colonel in Mash was a complete idiot as well as the rich Dr. (Sorry I am not old enough to know Mash that well).

That would be Henry Blake, his successor, Sherman Potter, was played more seriously. But, in the real world, the whole lot of them would've likely spent time in Leavenworth.

 

[Mudd]

What? The colonel in Mash was a complete idiot as well as the rich Dr. (Sorry I am not old enough to know Mash that well).

I'm with you, but Major Burns would be a better example - the "rich doctor," Winchester, was characterized as superbly competent, erudite and often perceptive. A snob and a real pain in the ass to be sure, but far from an idiot.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

What? The colonel in Mash was a complete idiot as well as the rich Dr. (Sorry I am not old enough to know Mash that well).

Every comedy of the Mash type relies on people doing things that would get the fired in real life and there is always a certain amount of buffoonery. Besides if you think real life soldiers act serious 100% of the time, you are wrong. When people ask me what the Navy was like I always say the most accurate Navy movie was Down Periscope.

i meant at least they were competant. likr at being doctors.

most of the orville crew arent even that. thats what im saying. if the orville wants me to take it seriously. its impossible when the point is "its funny cause were all idiots"

 

[Mudd]

i meant at least they were competant. likr at being doctors.

Burns was not, and Henry was no good at his job which was administration.

It's true that Gordon and John should not be allowed to mix with the locals. Ever.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Burns was not, and Henry was no good at his job which was administration.

It's true that Gordon and John should not be allowed to mix with the locals. Ever.

frankly i think eds ex should be the captain.

like i said i enjoy the orville but lamar was such a jackass i almost wanted him to lose. almost.

 

[BillJ]

like i said i enjoy the orville but lamar was such a jackass i almost wanted him to lose. almost.

But sometimes humans are jackasses. I would probably be higher on Discovery if the whole lot of them weren't coming across as such.

 

[Mudd]

frankly i think eds ex should be the captain.

Mercer is a good captain. He's not a Star Trek captain, which means he's not the most awesomely charismatic, authoritative and Always Right dude on the ship.

If this show were really the "vanity project" or wish fulfillment that some folks would like to pretend it is, Mercer would likely be all of those things. If it were the clumsy, low-ball comedy that others say then Mercer would be a pompous, myopic incompetent. In truth, as the show evolves it becomes more obvious that McFarlane has a pretty clear view of what he's doing with it and particularly where his character fits into the stories. He is only nominally the show's main character.

Showing Mercer's XO as frequently more on the ball than he is just makes McFarlane somewhat more observant of the world and specifically the military than are the folks running Trek.

 

[Jadeb]

But sometimes humans are jackasses. I would probably be higher on Discovery if the whole lot of them weren't coming across as such.

It's a matter of degree, isn't it? We all deal with people who seem to be incompetent or irresponsible or disproportionately successful, so we can laugh when an exaggerated version of the type turns up on MASH. But if you stretch that characterization too far, the characters lose their resonance and believability. Orville tends to stretch things too far, IMO, at least for a show that's trying to balance drama and comedy. Last night's ep would have been better if they'd gone with a less idiotic "crime."

 

[BillJ]

Orville tends to stretch things too far, IMO, at least for a show that's trying to balance drama and comedy. Last night's ep would have been better if they'd gone with a less idiotic "crime."

But that's just it, people are constantly claiming we need to give Discovery time with it only being six episodes in. Yet people seem to come down disproportionately hard on The Orville which is only on its seventh episode.

The Orville, while borrowing elements from throughout TV, is trying to do something that is rarely done well. And subtle isn't exactly a MacFarlane trait.

You do something subtle, and you end up in "Justice" territory with the character in major trouble for something dumb.

 

[eschaton]

If you took out how inept LeMar, Malloy, and to a lesser extent Captain Mercer are, the show would be even more of a blatant Trek ripoff. The main distinguishing feature is the characters are flawed - not in the sense of being complicated jerks, but just ordinary people.

On the other hand, so far Grayson, Finn, Bortus, Alara, and Isaac seem to be perfectly competent characters which (minus a few off-color jokes) wouldn't be out of place on a Trek show. It's interesting how only the human women, aliens, and robots get to know what they're doing. Basically it's following the family sitcom trope where men are useless idiots and women have to save the day.

 

[BillJ]

Basically it's following the family sitcom trope where men are useless idiots and women have to save the day.

Which makes sense, since MacFarlane's background is in animated family sitcoms.

 

[eschaton]

Oh, and I liked that once again Alara resorted to wearing a hat to try and blend in. And it actually became a plot point. This was one of the more ridiculous aspects of TOS I like seeing parodied on this show.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Mercer is a good captain. He's not a Star Trek captain, which means he's not the most awesomely charismatic, authoritative and Always Right dude on the ship.

If this show were really the "vanity project" or wish fulfillment that some folks would like to pretend it is, Mercer would likely be all of those things. If it were the clumsy, low-ball comedy that others say then Mercer would be a pompous, myopic incompetent. In truth, as the show evolves it becomes more obvious that McFarlane has a pretty clear view of what he's doing with it and particularly where his character fits into the stories. He is only nominally the show's main character.

Showing Mercer's XO as frequently more on the ball than he is just makes McFarlane somewhat more observant of the world and specifically the military than are the folks running Trek.

mercer is an idiot. its funny because he is borderline incompetant.

im only saying that from the angle of "if they want me to take it seriously"

i mean if im supposed to take it seriously... then god no he shouldnt captain anything. but it works for the comedy.

 

[Jadeb]

The Orville, while borrowing elements from throughout TV, is trying to do something that is rarely done well. And subtle isn't exactly a MacFarlane trait.

You do something subtle, and you end up in "Justice" territory with the character in major trouble for something dumb.

You're right about MacFarlane's humor. I wonder if he's keeping it broad partly because he knows that's what his audience expects. But I thought last night's ep would have been better if they'd gone with a Larry David-style social gaffe. You could have still had the character doing something incredibly idiotic, but in a way that would have been more believeable for the situation.

 

[eschaton]

mercer is an idiot. its funny because he is borderline incompetent.

Still a better Captain than Archer. At least he tries to rise above his mediocrity instead of thinking his first instincts are always right.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

expects. But I thought last night's ep would have been better if they'd gone with a Larry David-style social gaffe. You could have still had the character doing something incredibly idiotic, but in a way that would have been more believeable for the situation.

a thousand times yes. This exactly.

It was just hard to buy, easy to laugh at but hard to buy.

 

[Mudd]

mercer is an idiot. its funny because he is borderline incompetant [sic].

All righty, then!

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Still a better Captain than Archer. At least he tries to rise above his mediocrity instead of thinking his first instincts are always right.

I dunno if he is or isn't better than archer. I try not to speak on enterprise too much cause I truly didn't like the show, TNG, DS9 and VOY, I've probably run through 7 or 8 times each easy, more with ds9. ENT I've run through three times and didn't like almost anything about it, so I'll take your word on that.

Either way, I didn't like ENT, and much of that had to do with the characters, captain included.

No matter, if Orville wants me to take it seriously, it's impossible when the captain, Gordon and LaMarr are so inept and stupid. It works for the humor, but It doesn't land well for me with some of the more serious moments.