Hey, that's my line
Lorca is a coward and murderer, how come he's a Starfleet Captain still??
- Thread starter Refuge
- Start date
I like the 'we all know' bit. Lol.Hey, that's my line
I've been reliably and frequently reminded that this is not the case
Fair point. But you often choose to either ignore or make allowances for similar behaviour in other starfleet captains
I like to let each character own what they do and what Lorca does is on him.
Just like Janeway's actions toward Noah Lessing in Equinox pt 2 are on her right? I'm assuming that there is no excusing such behavior from a starfleet captain?
Did Janeway kill Noah? I must have missed that part. Of course what Janeway did is on her and Chakotay challenged her. It was written that she wasn't given a myriad of made up excuses. However it still doesn't cancel out or excuse actions characters on this show do. Do you think Janeway's future actions justify Lorca's? I was under the impression you judge Janeway but excuse Lorca.
Who did Lorca kill?
The last time i brought this up with you in another thread, you made excuses for Janeway, like that she wouldn't have actually gone through with it
I
I actually believe Janeway was bluffing but I'm more inclined to compare Lorca and Ransom.
Janeway - we will never know for sure how far she would have played it out, (that is the way it was written) .
How is believing Janeway was bluffing, different than believing that we don't know everything about what happened to Lorca on the Buran? If someone made a post in the Voyager forum saying that Janeway should have faced some sort of trial or consequences for her actions in Equinox would you have agreed with them or would you have defended her?
And to answer your question, I liked that scene in Equinox because it showed that Janeway wasn't perfect. She had a very human reaction to her crew being threatened. However, she should have faced consequences for her behaviour. Just like i think that if it is proven that Lorca acted with cowardice on the Buran, he should face consequences.
The point I try to make when using the behaviour of other Captains and comparing them to Lorca is to say that Captain's behaving badly is nothing new to the Star Trek franchise. But many are carrying on as if starfleet captains have never been unethical before.
Gosh how long did it take to find an old post of mine in a different thread That's cute. I don't know but I think there may be a few threads in the Voyager forum on the subject of the Equinox you might want to read.
Clearly I believe that Janeway and the situation with Noah is hugely different to Lorca killing his crew. That is also to answer your question of who Lorca killed. Both in result and proportion. However even if you can equate the two,(and again I'm definitely more inclined to compare Ransom with Lorca), one situation neither excuses or replaces another.
Behaving badly.. Lorca admitted to what I'm judging him on. Janeway didn't kill in the scenario, Lorca did. Again, it makes no difference. Janeway could run amok and purge everyone in her path and it doesn't sanctify Lorca. Doesn't work that way.
That's cute. I don't know but I think there may be a few threads in the Voyager forum on the subject of the Equinox you might want to read.Clearly I believe that Janeway and the situation with Noah is hugely different to Lorca killing his crew. That is also to answer your question of who Lorca killed. Both in result and proportion. However even if you can equate the two,(and again I'm definitely more inclined to compare Ransom with Lorca), one situation neither excuses or replaces another.
Behaving badly.. Lorca admitted to what I'm judging him on. Janeway didn't kill in the scenario, Lorca did. Again, it makes no difference. Janeway could run amok and purge everyone in her path and it doesn't sanctify Lorca. Doesn't work that way.
Gosh how long did it take to find an old post of mine in a different thread
Clearly I believe that Janeway and the situation with Noah is hugely different to Lorca killing his crew. That is also to answer your question of who Lorca killed. Both in result and proportion. However even if you can equate the two,(and again I'm definitely more inclined to compare Ransom with Lorca), one situation neither excuses or replaces another.
Behaving badly.. Lorca admitted to what I'm judging him on. Janeway didn't kill in the scenario, Lorca did. Again, it makes no difference. Janeway could run amok and purge everyone in her path and it doesn't sanctify Lorca. Doesn't work that way.
I've been on these boards since 2009, I've seen all the equinox/janeway should be locked up threads. They are very much like this one from memory.
Ok. I thought you were talking about Lorca on the Prison ship. Lorca didn't murder his crew, he just didn't die with them.The ship was incapacitated and didn't want his crew to be captured. T There are plenty of examples of Captains almost destroying their vessels with all hands to prevent capture. They always get saved by the plot. The reasons for his survival are unknown at present . Like I've said if it turns out that Lorca was pushing people out of the way to get to a lifeboat, I'll condemn him too. But we don't know if that is what happened or if he was prevented from dying with his crew.
I'm not asking you to change your opinion of Lorca, I want to know if your belief regarding Starfleet officers and ethics is consistent? Regardless of whether Janeway's behaviour is on the level of lorca's isn't really the issue, It was wrong, went against ethical behaviour and probably violated her oath as a Starfleet officer. Starfleet officers shouldn't be endangering the lives of prisoners, right?
It's actually Starfleet and Federation values I have personally tried to find context with in regards to Lorca. I know some would like to deflect and make it about broader and future Starfleet officers and issues, but the opportunity here in watching Discovery is to map the development of Federation directives and principles. To gauge Discovery in her timeline and her characters and how the values of the Federation were upheld and represented by the Starfleet of those times. It is more relevant working in that order than retro-actively taking what is the future and projecting it on the past. It is what making a prequel invites. Was this a time when a Captain who did not go down with his ship find reward in being given another commission? Was this the time when another Captain booby trapped the dead? Was this the time when a mutineer was not punished? When a civilian was abandoned?
It would seem so. It is the story being told. It isn't a series of random examples set against a moral background. It is the tone.
It would seem so. It is the story being told. It isn't a series of random examples set against a moral background. It is the tone.
I think that's a very convenient way of trying to avoid the question that I posed. It also doesn't make much sense. How is comparing the actions of a future starfleet captain to a captain in the past not relevant? Both seemingly went against their oath as starfleet officers, both commited acts that should be punishable by court martial. Why would you excuse the criminal behaviour of a future starfleet captain, but not the actions of past starfleet captain? Clearly Janeway's starfleet is one where you can endanger the life of a prisoner and get away with it.
I don't think you have really tried to find context in Lorca's actions. You consider him a 'one dimensional baddy' and have already made up your mind about him as a character. You're not even open to the possibility that he may have had no choice about not dying with his crew
I'm citing the story as told, you just don't agree with the topic, which is your take 
I don't quite understand why you are avoiding discussing Lorca being a murderer and coward (or not if you don't see it as such). I'm actually on topic, lol. You know I don't have to like him or the story, right? I don't have to justify my ethics or myself to pose something from the show that was a big moment in the last episode. I do enjoy discussing things but sometimes people just filter things differently. Maybe you could consider accepting I don't see things the way you do
I don't quite understand why you are avoiding discussing Lorca being a murderer and coward (or not if you don't see it as such). I'm actually on topic, lol. You know I don't have to like him or the story, right? I don't have to justify my ethics or myself to pose something from the show that was a big moment in the last episode. I do enjoy discussing things but sometimes people just filter things differently. Maybe you could consider accepting I don't see things the way you do
I'm citing the story as told, you just don't agree with the topic, which is your take
Oh I totally accept that you and I will never see eye to eye on this. I just enjoy our debates. And in fairness I have stated multiple times throughout this thread that based on my opinion i don't think Lorca is a coward or a murderer...Yet. That may change depending on where they go with plot line. But it's ok you avoiding of my question, answered my question. It's fine for some starfleet officers to commit crimes if they happen to be on a show you like but not ok if they happen to be on a show that you don't
You funny. If Janeway or any other Captain behaved like Lorca I would condemn them, I promise.Oh I totally accept that you and I will never see eye to eye on this. I just enjoy our debates. And in fairness I have stated multiple times throughout this thread that based on my opinion i don't think Lorca is a coward or a murderer...Yet. That may change depending on where they go with plot line. But it's ok you avoiding of my question, answered my question. It's fine for some starfleet officers to commit crimes if they happen to be on a show you like but not ok if they happen to be on a show that you don't
Yes I was just being cheeky with that last comment. It's nice to have new star trek to argue over
No worriesYes I was just being cheeky with that last comment. It's nice to have new star trek to argue over
Because we have no proof that he is either of those things at this time. He's shown no cowardice that I've seen, and aside from Klingon combatants, he's not killed anyone like a murderer.
His ship and crew were destroyed under his command, and he somehow survived and was still given another command during wartime. The problem with this knowledge is that it is incomplete for the audience. We don't know how he survived, nor how the ship was destroyed. Without these we cannot make an accurate judgement of Lorca's character. Especially given what we know of Starfleet captains from Archer through Janeway. They are all perfectly willing to blow up their own ships and crews to prevent capture. And we know that some plans don't always come out as intended, as seen with Captain Picard and Commodore Decker surviving the total loss of their crews while attempting to sacrifice themselves for their crews. So until we get more data, we cannot satisfactorily condemn Lorca as a murderer, nor a coward.
However given the preview for next week, Lorca does seem to be making enemies with some Starfleet Admirals.
Chiming in here:
@Lil Red Riding Hood I can't help but notice that you avoided answering the question of "who has Lorca killed?" You also don't seem to have offered much explanation as to how he's guilty of cowardice.
You're also coming across as being guilty of oversimplification bias, in that you've predisposed yourself to see Lorca as a bad guy even though his actions and characterization through 3 episodes do not match such a simple 'read' of the situation.
@Lil Red Riding Hood I can't help but notice that you avoided answering the question of "who has Lorca killed?" You also don't seem to have offered much explanation as to how he's guilty of cowardice.
You're also coming across as being guilty of oversimplification bias, in that you've predisposed yourself to see Lorca as a bad guy even though his actions and characterization through 3 episodes do not match such a simple 'read' of the situation.
Well, he killed his whole crew to save them from being left to the Klingons, and he left Mudd to the Klingons. I'm not sure how to feel about that, even if Mudd is despicable. I would've sent him to that gulag that Burnham almost got sent to.
He has some externally given power that he lords over his boss, I'm guessing by whatever agency started the spore research. (SF intelligence?)
I don't think he's a coward, and probably not a cold blooded murderer, but he is nuts.
He has some externally given power that he lords over his boss, I'm guessing by whatever agency started the spore research. (SF intelligence?)
I don't think he's a coward, and probably not a cold blooded murderer, but he is nuts.
