Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[137th Gebirg]

I think the evidence on the Tardigrade was a little less black and white. Burnham and the doctor thought the Tardigrade might be sentient, but didn't have proof. What they could prove was a degradation in its health due to use of the spore drive. In a case where its sentience was certain, there is no way that Saru would have made the same choice. But since it wasn't yet known, in the balance Saru was willing to take a risk and, as he said, was willing to suffer the repercussions of his decision should it come to that. And afterward, he realized that he had probably made the wrong choice, and had pushed the boundary in the case of extreme need. That is why he apologized to Burnham and why didn't need to listen to the computer's assessment of his performance - he realized that he messed up and knows not to do that in the future. His whole story isn't one of a character making the correct decision, but making a hard one and learning from the results. Not every captain is expected to be perfect, let alone first officers. This is part of the story of Saru developing the traits, the decision-making that will make him an effective captain. And even if aggression were an neccessary component of being a good captain, I don't think you can say that Saru doesn't have any: in his recent interactions with Burnham he clearly showed dominance in making his orders and carrying them out. Just because he is a prey species, doesn't mean he can never fight back, or learn to fight back.

Good points and well said. I had forgotten about some of Saru's rather stern responses to his authority being challenged. I now remember being actually shocked at the intensity of his "how DARE you" moment down in the lab when he realized Burnham had manipulated him. So, true, he is clearly not a full submissive. Hopefully he will grow. That being the case, I'm not sure he's my favorite crewmate right now.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Star Trek is fantasy. If I want realistic wartime personalities, they are more than amply available pretty much everywhere.

Being fantasy doesn't mean it can't have realistic wartime or even peacetime personalities. Trek was never set up to avoid realistic situations or reactions from it's characters. Nor did it want them to be one dimensional perfect squared jawed heroes. It commented on and reacted to the real world. Good fiction and science fiction isn't limited to escapism. Being set in the future or a mystical realm doesn't mean it's devoid of realism.
Some of Trek's best episodes are about hard choices. Choices that involve sacrifices. Personal, professional and moral.

 

[Gepard]

I don't see how you can describe Lorca as one-note. Surely the intense debate over his character should be proof that it isn't one-note: is he a hero, an anti-hero, a villain, an asshole, a pragmatist, a war criminal, remorseful, etc.? Doesn't sound one note to me.

To be fair to Ricky (and everyone else critical of Lorca), I don't think the endless debate is a function of how layered the character is so much as a measure of how we've been given zero context for anything. There's literally no way to come to a consensus about him because the writers have told us almost nothing. We've seen him be a jerk a whole lot, and we've gotten a few reveals about other also jerk-ish things he did in the past, and the rest is people throwing whatever they can think of at a wall to see what sticks. Lorca is a zero-depth Rorschach test.

 

[Gonzo]

To be fair to Ricky (and everyone else critical of Lorca), I don't think the endless debate is a function of how layered the character is so much as a measure of how we've been given zero context for anything. There's literally no way to come to a consensus on the very limited amount we know about him because the writers have told us almost nothing. We've seen him be a jerk a whole lot, and we've gotten a few reveals about other also jerk-ish things he did in the past, and the rest is people throwing whatever they can think of at a wall to see what sticks. Lorca is a zero-depth Rorschach test.

It really is silly for people to judge a main character so soon, he even said as much to Burnham with the "Context is for Kings" line, he is willing to look at the situation as a whole and I think its only fair we do the same in return.

Viewing an event or action in context literally means gaining a full understanding of the situation at the time is necessary to understand a persons actions and motivations.

We don't have that for Lorca yet, how sad it would be if he made his own ship self destruct to spare the crew from torture expecting to die along with it, yet still survived or help arrived at the very last second and there was nothing he could do.

We can place Burnhams actions in context as we saw it all play out in the first two episodes, I have no doubt we will be shown Lorcas sooner or later.

 

[Gepard]

It really is silly for people to judge a main character so soon, he even said as much to Burnham with the "Context is for Kings" line, he is willing to look at the situation as a whole and I think its only fair we do the same in return

I do think the fault here is on the writers for not filling the audience in properly on what the hell motivates this guy.

People keep comparing DSC to the Battlestar Galactica reboot, but nuBSG understood that it was important to give the audience a full picture of their characters at the start so we would understand their behavior, even though they often did some pretty awful things. In general (and this is barring the stuff that the writers themselves hadn't figured out yet and revealed in later seasons), if the showrunners knew something about the characters or the world they inhabited, they put it up on screen as soon as possible. We were shown right off the bat that Bill Adama was lying about where Earth was, and we knew that Baltar was complicit in the destruction of the Colonies and was haunted by a fantasy of the Cylon woman he loved. We understood that Kara Thrace had a thing for Lee Adama and was responsible for the death of his brother due to her own feelings. We didn't have to guess at this stuff, it was all on screen from the start. And the fact that other characters didn't know the things we knew was an asset, because it could be mined for dramatic irony.

I worry that DSC is falling victim to the modern premium cable drama impulse to surprise us with big reveals, even if it comes at the cost of properly characterizing the cast. This "wait and see" attitude trades satisfying storytelling in the moment for the promise that there's some kind of payoff down the line, and it does so in service of the least durable storytelling mode: that of shocking this audience. It's not a trade-off I feel is worth it.

 

[Succubint]

There were three people in that cell (well, four initially until Mudd got the poor guy killed). Why is no one talking about Tyler and his actions/attitude towards Mudd. Putting aside for the moment that he might be a Klingon plant, was it not telling that Tyler also was disgusted by Mudd. I wonder how many times Mudd fingered the other prisoners. How many of them died because Mudd refused to take even a single beating the allow others the chance to heal?

Tyler chose not to inform him of the initial plan to escape. His exact words: "Getting out of here was always a two man job. I just waited here until I found the right man." He chose not to invite him on the escape once the guards were down. He chose not to suggest saving him to Lorca. He chose not to defend Mudd in any way and even appeared just as angry at the man's obvious betrayals. Assuming that Tyler's been in that cell for days or weeks with Mudd, able to observe his actions, then he's had more time to assess the character of the man than Lorca.

He sided with Lorca.

This is something which conveniently gets left out of the debate. It was two Starfleet officers being in agreement as to Mudd's fate.

 

[Longinus]

The reason why we are not considering Tyler's point of view should be obvious.

 

[Succubint]

Did you not see my caveat? The "assuming he's not a Klingon plant" part. We have people inserting hypotheticals about being prisoners of war in WWII and the like, after all. People making huge assumptions about Mudd's frame of mind which has not been shown on screen. Why is Tyler's judgment of Mudd not acknowledged? It's not just Lorca who decides to leave him behind.

For all we know Tyler is a sleeper agent with altered memories who (for now) thinks he is who he says he is.

 

[137th Gebirg]

If Tyler is a Klingon agent, it would make sense for him to want Mudd stay behind as an exploitable asset for the Empire.

 

[Mr Awe]

I do think the fault here is on the writers for not filling the audience in properly on what the hell motivates this guy.

This is a serialized story and they can't cover everything first. So, we covered the motivations for some characters in previous episodes. This story was obviously meant to raise questions about Lorca, which I have no doubt will be covered in upcoming episodes.

Patience! If they tried to cover everything in the first episode we'd end up with one 15 hour episode!

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Ya know, Lorca could now be the Klingon, replaced then tossed in a cell,

leave us all thinking about Ash, plant some rumors, but all along it's lorca.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Ya know, Lorca could now be the Klingon, replaced then tossed in a cell,

leave us all thinking about Ash, plant some rumors, but all along it's lorca.

Interesting notion. Leading credence to the "British actor in a surprise villain role" in one of the blurbs I've seen online. Maybe Lorca isn't really Lorca and what we've been seeing has been a subtle (or not so subtle, depending on your POV) effort to undermine Starfleet's war effort. He already was known to have a somewhat ethically questionable career in Starfleet. He would be an easy cover to continue such morally questionable behavior without being quickly noticed, because "Oh, that's just Lorca doing his odd war shit". That would be quite the kick in the ding-ding, if true.

 

[Mudd]

Ya know, Lorca could now be the Klingon, replaced then tossed in a cell,

leave us all thinking about Ash, plant some rumors, but all along it's lorca.

That's actually a marginally interesting idea.

Which pretty much rules it out.

 

[Gepard]

This is a serialized story and they can't cover everything first.

So were Battlestar and Breaking Bad. So is Better Call Saul. Somehow they've managed it. Leaving some story for later episodes to tell and filling us in on basic character motivations are not mutually exclusive. In fact the former requires the latter. If you hold back simple information like "the core reason one of our main characters says or does anything" for the end of your season, you only have one episode's worth of story that you've stretched out over fifteen for some goddamn reason.

Stretching story out like that is just a cover for not being creative enough to think of fifteen episodes worth of content.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

That's actually a marginally interesting idea.

Which pretty much rules it out.

Thought the same thing the second it slipped from my fingers.

But, have a Starfleet captive, keep him normal, switch the lorca's, then use the already captive man to sell the idea of the escape.

Would be fun to watch, if I had any faith that they'd make it great. So far the show is "good", they should leave it simpler for now. At least that'd be my not so expert advice.

:: edit ::

would be some poetry or irony to the real Lorca springing Mudd later, or Mudd springing the real Lorca later.

 

[Longinus]

Ya know, Lorca could now be the Klingon, replaced then tossed in a cell,

leave us all thinking about Ash, plant some rumors, but all along it's lorca.

Yeah, that was my theory for the only way those Tyler rumours might not be true. I really doubt they'd gone as far as they did to mislead us though.

 

[Longinus]

would be some poetry or irony to the real Lorca springing Mudd later, or Mudd springing the real Lorca later.

Damn, that would be good!

 

[Vger23]

So were Battlestar and Breaking Bad. So is Better Call Saul. Somehow they've managed it. Leaving some story for later episodes to tell and filling us in on basic character motivations are not mutually exclusive. In fact the former requires the latter. If you hold back simple information like "the core reason one of our main characters days or does anything" for the end of your season, you only have one episode's worth of story that you've stretched out over fifteen for some goddamn reason.

Stretching story out like that is just a cover for not being creative enough to think of fifteen episodes worth of content.

I personally enjoy not having motivations and backstories revealed up front. It's more like real life...when you don't see the "God's Eye View" of everything early on.

We're discovering these people the same way we would discover new people in our real lives at work or wherever.

Good stuff in my opinion. Far more immersive for me as a viewer.

Different tastes, I guess.

 

[Kemaiku]

Or, they blew up the Buron with everyone aboard, after programming Lorca. The eye damage is a leftover problem from the surgical access to his cranium and the abduction was him deliberately (subconciously) allowing himself to be taken to do a checkup/renewal.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

So were Battlestar and Breaking Bad. So is Better Call Saul. Somehow they've managed it. Leaving some story for later episodes to tell and filling us in on basic character motivations are not mutually exclusive. In fact the former requires the latter. If you hold back simple information like "the core reason one of our main characters days or does anything" for the end of your season, you only have one episode's worth of story that you've stretched out over fifteen for some goddamn reason.

Stretching story out like that is just a cover for not being creative enough to think of fifteen episodes worth of content.

It's a problem of trying to do too much at once. My problem isn't that we never get the story, cause I can think of a good reason why we don't. I mean in the middle of a possible prison break, if you're Ash, you're not exactly going to trade your freedom for demanding the rest of THAT story. Especially considering it comes from a viper.

That being said they didn't address the obvious distrust at all, no true suspicious glances, or any conversational or unspoken moment. Consider the moment Lorca leaves Ash to go secure their exit, no unspoken glances or words over whether or not Lorca would leave an injured man after such a story was told?

I can take being told later, that's just a function of ensuing drama, but to not touch it at all? Poor writing,

unless of course, Ash is Voq, and he simply didn't care. Even then, you'd expect a clever captain to be made suspicious of such a lack of care.