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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

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But that is because we know Harry Mudd. Lorca doesn't, and we have to judge his actions in that context.

I think what Mudd did to Lorca and in his presence is the very thing we all know Mudd for. I think judging Lorca within the context of what he knew Mudd to do was practically the same. Mudd is Mudd, and that's how Lorca knows him.

Gotta say, pretty smart TV and compelling storyline. Really adds a lot to Lorca's character.

It really is a credit to Discovery. These types of discussions are one of the marks of a good show. A show that compels people to debate the moral implications of a character's actions.

Good trek.
 
We've debated Insurrection to the brink on madness on these very boards. It doesn't make it "good".

There were compelling aspects to Insurrection and I think that it's a credit to certain aspects if people are debating it so.

So far, every inch of this show is being passionately debated and discussed. It may not be the best show ever but it's a smart show and it's being discussed as such.
 
That is simply categorically false.

In the real world, countless thousands have endured torture without ever buckling and giving in. Many resisted torture even without military training. Just last year, small Coptic Christian children who had seen their own parents murdered and tortured refused to give in to ISIS demands.
I pointed that out earlier in this thread but he chose to ignore it. Apparently his YouTube guy is more authentic than all the evidence in the world to the contrary. Not to mention it's all academic anyway since Mudd wasn't tortured
 
No, the victim blaming goes to people who believe that a person in the process of escaping a prison has a moral obligation to set loose a traitor so that he can be swiftly caught and / or killed.

Lorca isn't Superman, if Mudd is out loose and betrays him, which he has already done multiple times, then both Lorca and Tyler are doomed. You are blaming the victim (Lorca) because he did not go out of his way to insure that he was caught by the Klingons. It's kinda like the Batman line to R'as Al Ghul in the movies: "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either."

Lorca closed the prison cell himself. This is Batman shooting R'as Al Ghul in the face, then saying "you made me do this".

So let me get this straight in my head.

You're willing to give Mudd the benefit of the doubt NOT KNOWING exactly how he became a "collaborator" (or not), but you aren't prepared to give Lorca the same NOT KNOWING exactly how he became a "war criminal" (or not), right?

Because, whether you admit it or not, WE don't know the full story behind either scenario.

Mudd is a con-man that deserves to be imprisoned. He is NOT a war traiter, only because he broke under the threat of torture.

Lorca is a Starfleet Captain, who stayed cool in the situation of his escape and willfully decided to imprison Lorca with the enemy.

I have a different set of standards for people in uniform vs. civilians. One of them is trained for extreme situations.

I also have a different set of standard for what villains do in a story vs. what heroes are allowed to do. The problem here is not so much the action itself. The problem is that it clearly was a villainous action, but commited by someone who was portrayed as a hero while doing it.
 
I pointed that out earlier in this thread but he chose to ignore it. Apparently his YouTube guy is more authentic than all the evidence in the world to the contrary. Not to mention it's all academic anyway since Mudd wasn't tortured

You really need to get your information from somewhere else than facebook, infowars or foxnews. That's not good for your mental health.
 
Do you think it is more dark, grim and unpleasant than the TOS era of Vietnam, the draft, miscegenation laws and race riots? Serious question.
No. Because the consensus in society at the time is that these were BAD things and massive collective effort was being applied to fight them. TOS' storylines mostly reflected this: when Ronald Tracy went crazy on Omega, Kirk identifies him as a rogue element out of his head and puts a stop to it. When the the people on planet Neural start fighting a proxy war on behalf of the Klingons, Kirk regretfully evens the odds. When the Romulans violate Federation space, Kirk defends the border and restores peace. When Matt Decker looses his mind from a combination of trauma and survivor's guilt, Spock relieves him of duty, and later use his sacrifice to help save the day. Daystrom's killer robot is a costly mistake by a well-intentioned genius; NOMAD is just a huge but deadly misunderstanding, etc.

The implication from the 60s and 70s is that a lot of dumb stuff has been passed into law and all you have to do is correct those problems and things will be okay. We're in a stupid war to save a country that doesn't want us there? Pull out! Jim Crow reduced a quarter of our population to second class citizens? Abolish it! People are being lynched and driven out of town in race riots? Call the Feds! Lots of problems, but they all have solutions.

Then you get into the 90s, by which time the solutions actually ARE the problems. You have a government that passes "tax reform" that does the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do, redistributing wealth from the poor to the rich. You have institutions that raise prices on tuition and healthcare while offering the same or lower quality service than they did before. Houses get more expensive and less safe; you get more and bigger wars for stupider reasons and half the country is calling you a traitor for opposing them; you get corrupt politicians getting reelected because some of your neighbors think corruption is a sign of initiative; you get corrupt CEOs getting promotions and bonus packages and rapists avoiding jail time because they're such swell people.

the 1960s managed to hold on to its optimism with a sense of shared struggle and collective action that made people think they could actually change the world for the better. 50 years later, trying to change the world for the better gets you labeled as an asshole and a troublemaker, while the people who go out of their way to destroy anything they don't approve of get labeled "Director" or "Chief" or "Mr. President."

It's one thing to have a shit ton of problems that everyone is trying to solve. It's quite another thing to have a shit ton of problems that everyone is trying to PREVENT you from solving.

One of the things I've always loved about TOS was it dared to show a better tomorrow even when things were pretty terrible.
Exactly my point: TOS, like 1960s counter-culture, dared to hope for a better tomorrow. Someone says "We can do better!" and the crowd says "Hell yes!"

2010s is an era where people hope for a better tomorrow over the howling of those who like the problems as they are. Someone says "We can do better!" and the crowd says "Fuck you!"
 
I pointed that out earlier in this thread but he chose to ignore it. Apparently his YouTube guy is more authentic than all the evidence in the world to the contrary. Not to mention it's all academic anyway since Mudd wasn't tortured
We also know he will live as well as Mudd is canon in TOS.
 
But that is because we know Harry Mudd. Lorca doesn't, and we have to judge his actions in that context.
Lorca doesn't care. If we're judging HIS actions, he did it because he's an asshole.

At this point, we're pretty much discussing whether or not IN THE BROADER CONTEXT this amounts to an evil action. In context, it really isn't; whether Lorca knows it or not, Mudd's in no real danger here.
 
TNG went into a lot of dark themes. "Chain of command" is just one example. The difference is, it went into it with much more thoughtfulness of the situation, and maturity to handle these complex topics
Hahahahahaha! Really?

You consider Star Fleet send a decorated Starship Captain on a mission with just ONE medical officer and ONE security person in a shuttlecraft to find and destroy a weapon that can wipe out a planet being built in a locatrion where the latest intel Starfleet has in more than two years old, "thoughtful and mature"?

It was a ridiculous set up (and TNG trope) that again, we had a mainline serving Federation Captain - who somehow was the ONLY PERSON IN THE ENTIRE FEDERATION that could determine if the 'special waves' were real; so they effectively sent him and two other (one probably woefully untrained for it) - aka Dr. Crusher) on a suicide mission.

Then we get to the interrogation/torture part. They show the Cardassians using a powerful truth serum that worked well; so the Cardassians got all the useful info out of Picard that they needed - so teh rest is just showing a utterly sadistic Cardassian Gul effectively torturing and breaking Picard for his own enjoyment.
^^^
Sorry, but again, I don't really consider that setup and execution very thoughtful or mature myself. It was a pat story to say something that should be obvious = Torture is a bad thing.

They didn't even try to go into the aspect that information obtained through torture is often unreliable and hard to verify (yes, Picard makes a pat speech - which is how TNG usually handles these subjects - but a more mature approach would be to show that the info obtained was unreliable (but that would involve showing a Fed/Cardassian armed confrontation with Cardassians dying because the info was unreliable, and TNG would never do that (DS9 or ENT might have if they did a similar storyline in later seasons of those shows).

then there's the 1701-D's crew reaction (Geordi an others) to Captain Jellico's orders that ARE prepping the 1701-D to enter a possible military confrontation; and Geordi whining about have to pull extra shifts and Jellico being too demanding (oh, and that Jellico's actions are causing them to shut down a number of science depts.on the ship.)
^^^
So again, yeah I don't consider TNG - "Chain of Command" either very thoughtful or mature in regards to how it handled the subject.
 
Lorca closed the prison cell himself. This is Batman shooting R'as Al Ghul in the face, then saying "you made me do this".



Mudd is a con-man that deserves to be imprisoned. He is NOT a war traiter, only because he broke under the threat of torture.

Lorca is a Starfleet Captain, who stayed cool in the situation of his escape and willfully decided to imprison Lorca with the enemy.

I have a different set of standards for people in uniform vs. civilians. One of them is trained for extreme situations.

I also have a different set of standard for what villains do in a story vs. what heroes are allowed to do. The problem here is not so much the action itself. The problem is that it clearly was a villainous action, but commited by someone who was portrayed as a hero while doing it.

But why do you automatically categorize Lorca as a "hero"? Because he is a Starfleet Captain? How many SF captains have we had already who weren't exactly "hero" material? The "hero" and the main protagonist of the show -- to me -- is Michael Burnham. Everybody else is a satellite. Satellites have arcs. We're seeing such an arc in Lorca's case.

You need to get off this hero bit as far as Lorca is concerned. Just because he's a captain doesn't automatically make him a white knight wannabe. Isaacs said it himself -- he's a wartime captain. And I said it earlier in case you missed it: Think Churchill who IS considered a hero by one side of the world AND a war criminal by another. Both positions are arguable.
 
Hahahahahaha! Really?

You consider Star Fleet send a decorated Starship Captain on a mission with just ONE medical officer and ONE security person in a shuttlecraft to find and destroy a weapon that can wipe out a planet being built in a locatrion where the latest intel Starfleet has in more than two years old, "thoughtful and mature"?
This goes to the "product of the times" point I was just making. If that same storyline had been made in 2017, you KNOW that it would have been revealed at the end that Nechayev selected Picard for the job because she was sleeping with Jellico and wanted to arrange to get him his own command. And Picard, on discovering this, wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about it because technically Nechayev didn't actually break any regulations (or, better yet, actually wrote the regulations that allow her to do exactly what she did).
 
But why do you automatically categorize Lorca as a "hero"? Because he is a Starfleet Captain? How many SF captains have we had already who weren't exactly "hero" material? The "hero" and the main protagonist of the show -- to me -- is Michael Burnham. Everybody else is a satellite. Satellites have arcs. We're seeing such an arc in Lorca's case.

You need to get off this hero bit as far as Lorca is concerned. Just because he's a captain doesn't automatically make him a white knight wannabe. Isaacs said it himself -- he's a wartime captain. And I said it earlier in case you missed it: Think Churchill who IS considered a hero by one side of the world AND a war criminal by another. Both positions are arguable.

The problem is he was portrayed as the protagonist in this situation. And clearly not as some sort of "villain protagonist" (like Frank Castle or Walter White), not even some type of "anti-hero" (like Blade, or Jack Bauer), just a regular Starfleet Captain doing evil things without consequences.

Hahahahahaha! Really?

You consider Star Fleet send a decorated Starship Captain on a mission with just ONE medical officer and ONE security person in a shuttlecraft to find and destroy a weapon that can wipe out a planet being built in a locatrion where the latest intel Starfleet has in more than two years old, "thoughtful and mature"?

It was a ridiculous set up (and TNG trope) that again, we had a mainline serving Federation Captain - who somehow was the ONLY PERSON IN THE ENTIRE FEDERATION that could determine if the 'special waves' were real; so they effectively sent him and two other (one probably woefully untrained for it) - aka Dr. Crusher) on a suicide mission.

Then we get to the interrogation/torture part. They show the Cardassians using a powerful truth serum that worked well; so the Cardassians got all the useful info out of Picard that they needed - so teh rest is just showing a utterly sadistic Cardassian Gul effectively torturing and breaking Picard for his own enjoyment.
^^^
Sorry, but again, I don't really consider that setup and execution very thoughtful or mature myself. It was a pat story to say something that should be obvious = Torture is a bad thing.

They didn't even try to go into the aspect that information obtained through torture is often unreliable and hard to verify (yes, Picard makes a pat speech - which is how TNG usually handles these subjects - but a more mature approach would be to show that the info obtained was unreliable (but that would involve showing a Fed/Cardassian armed confrontation with Cardassians dying because the info was unreliable, and TNG would never do that (DS9 or ENT might have if they did a similar storyline in later seasons of those shows).

then there's the 1701-D's crew reaction (Geordi an others) to Captain Jellico's orders that ARE prepping the 1701-D to enter a possible military confrontation; and Geordi whining about have to pull extra shifts and Jellico being too demanding (oh, and that Jellico's actions are causing them to shut down a number of science depts.on the ship.)
^^^
So again, yeah I don't consider TNG - "Chain of Command" either very thoughtful or mature in regards to how it handled the subject.

You really didn't understand 'Chain of Command', did you?
Pointing out limitations of 90s tv-series is about as convincing an argument as knocking TOS for it's paper sets.
 
The problem is he was portrayed as the protagonist in this situation. And clearly not as some sort of "villain protagonist" (like Frank Castle or Walter White), not even some type of "anti-hero" (like Blade, or Jack Bauer), just a regular Starfleet Captain doing evil things without consequences.

Which HAS happened in Trek before. Did you react the same way for 20 pages when it came to them? :p
 
No. Because the consensus in society at the time is that these were BAD things and massive collective effort was being applied to fight them.

[snip for space]

It's one thing to have a shit ton of problems that everyone is trying to solve. It's quite another thing to have a shit ton of problems that everyone is trying to PREVENT you from solving.

Exactly my point: TOS, like 1960s counter-culture, dared to hope for a better tomorrow. Someone says "We can do better!" and the crowd says "Hell yes!"

2010s is an era where people hope for a better tomorrow over the howling of those who like the problems as they are. Someone says "We can do better!" and the crowd says "Fuck you!"

If there was consensus in society then, there wouldn't have been need for the huge social turmoil, would there? I think you have a much more sunny view of that time than I do. Roddenberry was working on "The Cage" not long after the president was shot dead, and the country was on fire for the show's whole run.

I think we have it a lot better now than they did then, though we're dealing with many of the same issues today.
 
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