Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[eschaton]

You might be mistaking "rooting for" with "interested in." I think he's an interesting character. Not sure that we're supposed to be rooting for him. I'm guessing he's a character who needs to be redeemed. We're just in the early stages of that arc.

If they do a redemption arc for Lorca, it will begin to make up for the crap that DS9 put Dukat through in its last episode and a half.

 

[Mr Awe]

There's a difference between willfull collaboration, and forced collaboration, e.g. by means of threats of torture or death.

No one is ever going to lawfully punish you for the latter one. Ever. Read up.

Mudd made a choice to collaborate with the Klingons against the Federation. He made a personal calculation. It's fair that Lorca would not trust him during an escape attempt. If things went sideways, it's reasonable to assume that Mudd would sell them out.

 

[Rahul]

That's false equivalence, though... for one thing, Mudd wasn't kidnapped at all, he was arrested for trespassing in Klingon space. His collaboration in this case isn't because he "broke," it's because he doesn't WANT to be tortured and the Klingons know this. It's essentially a plea bargain: he helps the Klingons interrogate their prisoners and the Klingons give him something in return (probably his freedom, eventually, seeing how he obviously doesn't spend the rest of his life on that ship).

So you're right when you say Mudd isn't really a "collaborator" as such. "Collaborator" implies he's a POW or participant in the war. Really, he's just a criminal and a snitch, and seeing how he actually DID break the law, Lorca has no moral or legal obligation to rescue him.

The fact that he left him TO THE KLINGONS is what makes this a dick move. Because more likely than not, the Klingons are going to be pissed about the escape and will almost certainly blame Mudd for it. His plea bargain goes out the window, and he's going to be cracking dilithium in Rura Penthe by the end of the week.

You assume Mudd was willingly collaborating with the klingons. In fact, you insinuate so far as he was planted inside the cell, to snitch upon his fellow inmates, and would be free to go if he wanted.

There is nothing in the episode to support this theory. Quite the opposite actually, this guy seemed genuine frightened by the prospect of being chosen by Lorca and Tyler.

It's more realistic he was a fellow inmate, who broke earlier than the trained military personal, and traded his little "bug" against "not being tortured this time".

Which made him pissed. Against the people who brought him in this situation: The klingons. And Starfleet. One of those he was able to rub his displeasurement in their faces. Which he did. Because, while he is a victim himself, he also is bit of a dick.

Mudd is not evil. He is a selfish, arrogant, poor douchebag soul trapped in a situation way beyond his capabilities. Nothing to deserve death and torture for, which clearly awaits him now that his usefulness is gone.

Even though we know he will be able to swindle his way out of all of this (this IS a prequel after all), leaving him behind was unnecessary cruel.

 

[Mudd]

Seriously? There's 64 pages of people debating ethics and morality in this thread alone, not to mention the other debates going on elsewhere. That doesn't sound like lowest common denominator stuff to me.

Crediting Discovery for any intelligent discussion - and honestly, a lot of it's no more than bleating "It's war! Let God sort them out!" - is like giving Donald Trump credit for the fact that Americans are debating our health care system.

This is not smart TV.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Do we actually know he's a prisoner of the Klingons? We only have his word to go by. He might have agreed to pretend to be a prisoner and sit in a cell with Starfleet POWs for intelligence purposes.

This is true. He's not the most trustworthy of characters to take his word at face value.

 

[Rahul]

Crediting Discovery for any intelligent discussion - and honestly, a lot of it's no more than bleating "It's war! Let God sort them out!" - is like giving Donald Trump credit for the fact that Americans are debating our health care system.

This is not smart TV.

Indeed, the 'Lorca'-part of this episode was really dumb. The Discovery-part OTOH was moderatly fine.

I suspect the writers didn't wanted this to happen This smells like the result of a troubled production and a rushed script - clearly more aimed at being "finished" at a deadline, instead of being well thought-out. That's one of the negative side-effects of the big development hell-phase DIS went through in the beginning.

I sincerely hope they get their shit together in the long run, and notice when they struggle to grasp such complex issues.

 

[Rahul]

This is true. He's not the most trustworthy of characters to take his word at face value.

That's "he probably deserved it anyway"-victim blaming if I ever heard one...

If a guy is in a torture cell, fearing for his physical well-being (which he clearly did at the "choosing process"), there is NO reason to believe he wants to be there, and deserves to be left there, only because he's kind of a douche.

 

[Mr Awe]

Forced collaboration, especially under threat of physical violence, DOES NOT make you a traitor!

He chose to make things easier for himself by working against his fellow prisoners. That's a collaborator.

We're not going to agree on this issue, so I'm agreeing to disagree a this point.

 

[Rahul]

He chose to make things easier for himself by working against his fellow prisoners. That's a collaborator.

We're not going to agree on this issue, so I'm agreeing to disagree a this point.

This is nothing to agree or disagree upon. This is about a basic reality, a baseline of undisputable facts. One of those is: Forced compliance, especially by threat of physical harm, is NOT, and I repeat, NOT comparable to willfull or voluntary collaboration with the enemy. It. simply. is. not.

NO ONE, ever, in the whole history of interrogation, warfare and resistance movements, would ever make that case.

 

[Feron]

This is nothing to agree or disagree upon. This is about a basic reality, a baseline of undisputable facts. One of those is: Forced compliance, especially by threat of physical harm, is NOT, and I repeat, NOT comparable to willfull or voluntary collaboration with the enemy. It. simply. is. not.

NO ONE, ever, in the whole history of interrogation, warfare and resistance movements, would ever make that case.

You have shown ZERO evidence to indicate the Mudd was forced to do anything. Mudd expressed no remorse whatsoever about his treason, he was proud of it. Someone who had been coerced against their will to harm others would normally show some kind of remorse or pain about it.

 

[Noname Given]

Desperation. After all these years, people need to believe that CBS hasn't dumped Trek in the parking lot and set it on fire. So they'll make excuses for a lot and for quite a while.

^^^
Why bring up how Star Trek fans felt 5 episodes after the premiere of TNG in 1987 again?

So what exactly happened that stunted the Federation's growth towards utopia (that we see in Enterprise) that caused it to have so many broken officers without morals?

I smell an inbetweenquel!

Six months (well 7 now) of hard fought warfare.

 

[Rahul]

You have shown ZERO evidence to indicate the Mudd was forced to do anything. Mudd expressed no remorse whatsoever about his treason, he was proud of it. Someone who had been coerced against their will to harm others would normally show some kind of remorse or pain about it.

Huh? So this guy, trapped in a torture cell, most likely wants to be there? And because of that gets pissed once he is left in there?

Man, talk about victim blaming on a whole fucking new level...

 

[BillJ]

Mudd made a choice to collaborate with the Klingons against the Federation. He made a personal calculation. It's fair that Lorca would not trust him during an escape attempt. If things went sideways, it's reasonable to assume that Mudd would sell them out.

Doing the right thing isn't always safe and easy.

 

[Jadeb]

I think it's the other way around. We have alot of really nasty shit being pushed on us these days as "normal" and said shit is increasingly hard to swallow. Our stories are getting darker to reflect this fact, because we need characters we're able to relate to on some basic level.

The hope and optimism of the 1960s and 70s got a bit of a retread in TNG, but it's long since stopped resonating with viewers. For a lot of people, their daily existence is actually "I'm surrounded by people who think I'm an asshole, in a system designed to fuck me over, for a boss whose singular talent is covering his own ass, in a country that resents the fact that I've survived as long as I have." Star Trek is and has always been a product of the society that created if. If Discovery is dark and grim and unpleasant, it's because America has become a dark, grim and unpleasant place to live for a frighteningly large number of people.

Do you think it is more dark, grim and unpleasant than the TOS era of Vietnam, the draft, miscegenation laws and race riots? Serious question. One of the things I've always loved about TOS was it dared to show a better tomorrow even when things were pretty terrible.

 

[Noname Given]

We're debating whether or not leaving a civilian behind to be tortured and possibly killed is acceptable. There should be no fucking debate at all about this kind of treatment.

Yet here we are. Thanks Discovery!

We're also debating if the fact said Civilian was actively colluding, conspiring with, and assisting the enemy should have any baring on that decision given that it could jeopardize the escape of a prisoner with vital military information that Starfleet doesn't want to fall into enemy hands.

It's not completely 'black and white' here.

Once the Starfleet people are gone, the Klingons should have no further use for him. So, they would likely dispose of him in proper Klingon fashion.

^^^
Also, if that's known to be the case (that Klingons have zero use for Federation Civilian prisoners, Mudd's story is even more suspect. Why would the Klingons capture (and not kill him) in the first place - and why would they keep him on a ship with Federation military POWs?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You assume Mudd was willingly collaborating with the klingons.

Mudd thinks he's willingly collaborating. On this particular issue, I believe him.

There is nothing in the episode to support this theory. Quite the opposite actually, this guy seemed genuine frightened by the prospect of being chosen by Lorca and Tyler.

Of course he did. NOT acting frightened would have raised uncomfortable questions, yes? Like "Why do you not seem even a little bit worried about us choosing you?"

It's more realistic he was a fellow inmate, who broke earlier than the trained military personal, and traded his little "bug" against "not being tortured this time".

First of all, if we were talking about anyone but Harry Mudd, this would ALMOST be a believable theory. But this IS Harry Mudd, so it's a foregone conclusion that the very first thing he did when they arrested him was try to make a deal. When you look up "Enlightened self interest" in the dictionary, you see a picture of Harry Mudd with his terrible hat and three mail order brides standing behind him.

Second of all, WHY exactly would the Klingons have tortured him? He's a civilian, he clearly doesn't know anything worth telling, and even if he did... again, he's HARRY FUCKING MUDD, he'd tell them anything they wanted to know in exchange for a ham sandwich.

Mudd tipped his hand early on talking to Lorca: "I'm like you. I'm a survivor." Which means he literally does whatever he has to do to survive, and will sell out anyone, lie to anyone, steal from anyone, cheat anyone, and make any deal he has to in order to avoid trouble for himself. He is probably the only person on the ship the Klingons HAVEN'T tortured.

Mudd is not evil. He is a selfish, arrogant, poor douchebag soul trapped in a situation way beyond his capabilities. Nothing to deserve death and torture for

Of course not. Violating Klingon space is what earned him the death and torture (he was legitimately arrested for that, remember?) But again, this is Harry Mudd we're talking about; avoiding punishment for his crimes is kind of his thing.

Even though we know he will be able to swindle his way out of all of this (this IS a prequel after all), leaving him behind was unnecessary cruel.

It was certainly cruel (Lorca's a jerkass like that) but you're getting rightly skewered on the "unnecessary" part. Picard or Janeway would have given some sort of heartfelt and moralizing "I'm sorry, but I can't take that chance" and then had a heart to heart with their first officer later about whether or not this was the right thing to do. Lorca, by contrast, is all "fuck that guy, he told on me"

 

[Feron]

Huh? So this guy, trapped in a torture cell, most likely wants to be there? And because of that gets pissed once he is left in there?

Man, talk about victim blaming on a whole fucking new level...

No, the victim blaming goes to people who believe that a person in the process of escaping a prison has a moral obligation to set loose a traitor so that he can be swiftly caught and / or killed.

Lorca isn't Superman, if Mudd is out loose and betrays him, which he has already done multiple times, then both Lorca and Tyler are doomed. You are blaming the victim (Lorca) because he did not go out of his way to insure that he was caught by the Klingons. It's kinda like the Batman line to R'as Al Ghul in the movies: "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either."

 

[indranee]

"Threat of torture" is enough in this case. Especially for a civilian. Also: You don't know that. He just didn't look like he was tortured recently in his face. But you didn't see under his jacket, did you??

So let me get this straight in my head.

You're willing to give Mudd the benefit of the doubt NOT KNOWING exactly how he became a "collaborator" (or not), but you aren't prepared to give Lorca the same NOT KNOWING exactly how he became a "war criminal" (or not), right?

Because, whether you admit it or not, WE don't know the full story behind either scenario.

 

[BillJ]

First of all, if we were talking about anyone but Harry Mudd, this would ALMOST be a believable theory. But this IS Harry Mudd, so it's a foregone conclusion that the very first thing he did when they arrested him was try to make a deal.

But that is because we know Harry Mudd. Lorca doesn't, and we have to judge his actions in that context.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Six moths (well 7 now) of hard fought warfare.

I know this is just a simple typo, but I couldn't help thinking:

"Cry havoc, and let slip the moths of war".