Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[Mr Awe]

I think you hit it on the head. Anecdotal it may be, but I've noticed that too amongst my family/friends, as well. In fact, I've received some flack myself for liking DSC because I'm a Niner.

Same here. Love DS9. Best of the Berman era Trek by far.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Dear Lord...Please tell me you're kidding about that...

YES!

 

[Longinus]

^ Harry willingly chose his fellow prisoners for torture and eventual death. That's betrayal (of his fellow prisoners) and collaboration (with the torturers).

I'd wager most people in real life would do that after being shown the torture implements and seeing the effects of torture on their cellmates. The bravest individuals might choose themselves to be tortured maybe once.

 

[Refuge]

Just as an aside Starfleet in general is not looking good. Lorca losing his ship and crew. Georgiou getting killed and the Shenzhou floating around like a big bloody vault of information for the enemy to exploit. The Glenn. What with the Buran, the Glenn and Shenzhou, the Klingons don't have to do anything! Starfleet are their own worse enemy

 

[Mr Awe]

Nobody punishes POW's for questionable actions during their improsenment afterwards.

Yet, that's exactly what you're suggesting for Lorca.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So was it evil for Kirk to abandon Mudd on a planet full of robot Stellas?

Evil? No. But certainly a dick move, even though Mudd had it coming.

 

[Mel Tenorio]

P.S I really wish people would stop playing the war crimes card in regards to Lorca leaving Mudd, that's not a war crime as Mudd didn't look or act like a hostage to me, also hostages don't assist the enemy or spy on their own, he looked like a Collaborator to me.

I liked when Lorca left Mudd behind. It was a very non-starfleet thing to do. Archer, Janeway, Picard, not even Sisko would have left him behind. Regardless, leaving him behind is part of a greater story which is to come.

 

[Rahul]

Yet, that's exactly what you're suggesting for Lorca.

If I take you and two other people hostage, and tell you YOU have to decide which of those three I will kill, NO ONE is going to blame you or call you a murderer afterwards if you chose someone other than you.

If you overpower me, escape, and THEN tie up one of the other two to be left alone with the murderer, you WILL be trialed for assistance to murder. It's really that easy.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Does Saru want to learn from Lorca, or can Saru learn anything of value from Lorca?

Georgou was an explorer, and Lorca is a soldier.

They are different people.

Lorca's lesson plan is probably going to be emotionally toxic, and more so is Lorca a teacher, or does he want fully formed officers who get'er done?

What was really weird was when Michael first arrived on Discovery, Saru seemed quite protective of Lorca, basically telling her that he will not let happen there what he felt he allowed to happen on the Shenzhou. Then, only a couple episodes later, he's spitting out Lorca's name with much vitriol after she manipulates him into using his "threat ganglia" to ascertain whether or not the tardigrade is a threat, implying she's just like Lorca and she'll fit in well there.

I don't think Saru's going to get clipped before the season's done, I think he's going to flat-out resign his commission. He appears thoroughly disgusted by Starfleet in general and humans in particular.

 

[Mr Awe]

I just think it's lovely people are enjoying Discovery, however if they find it uncomfortable reading any criticism they can always flit past it.

If you read the comments, you'll see that it's not the discussion of the criticisms that are a problem. It's the accusations of being inferior for enjoying the show that is problematic. Ironically, it's the opposite of what you describe. A few of those with criticisms don't seem to be willing or able to defend their criticisms.

On the whole, the discussion have been good, civil, and interesting except for those cases of accusing Discovery fans of being war crime loving folk. Oh, and slack jawed too. Ha!

 

[Rahul]

I liked when Lorca left Mudd behind. It was a very non-starfleet thing to do. Archer, Janeway, Picard, not even Sisko would have left him behind. Regardless, leaving him behind is part of a greater story which is to come.

I liked it when Bush put people without trial into Gitmo. It was a very non-American thing to do. Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, not even Nixon would have done that. Regardless, doing that is part of a greater story which is yet to come.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Blackadder Goes Forth?

Greatest season ever!

 

[137th Gebirg]

Seriously? There's 64 pages of people debating ethics and morality in this thread alone, not to mention the other debates going on elsewhere. That doesn't sound like lowest common denominator stuff to me.

Hush now! Do not confuse the issue with facts. It befuddles some people.

 

[Mr Awe]

If I take you and two other people hostage, and tell you YOU have to decide which of those three I will kill, NO ONE is going to blame you or call you a murderer afterwards if you chose someone other than you.

If you overpower me, escape, and THEN tie up one of the other two to be left alone with the murderer, you WILL be trialed for assistance to murder. It's really that easy.

Except that's not what happened. Lorca didn't inform a collaborator of his plans and didn't take him on a risky escape. Lorca would not be punished afterwards. In fact, it would've been massively incompetent of Lorca to involve a collaborator in an escape attempt.

 

[Refuge]

A few of those with criticisms don't seem to be willing or able to defend their criticisms.

I guess some people are just content to share their likes and let them stand as a reflection of their reaction and some people their critiques. Sometimes it's not about defending or refuting but just expressing

 

[137th Gebirg]

That's the other thing: I still don't like the music much in this series!

Agreed. It's the usual musical wallpaper that's existed in Trek since the 80's. TOS had ICONIC music. Hear a few bars and you can remember exactly which episode it was from. Even TAS music, while horribly overused, was more memorable than anything that came later. TNG had the one semi-operatic movement from BOBW invoking the Borg and, of course, "Inner Light". As much as I loved DS9, it had no music I can clearly recall. Voyager and Enterprise? Feh. Discovery follows in that tradition. The film scores were so much better, IMO.

 

[Mr Awe]

Sure. And thus I'm a bit perplexed how so many people seem to be rooting for Lorca and making excuses for his horrible behaviour.

You might be mistaking "rooting for" with "interested in." I think he's an interesting character. Not sure that we're supposed to be rooting for him. I'm guessing he's a character who needs to be redeemed. We're just in the early stages of that arc.

 

[137th Gebirg]

And here is probably where the disconnect happens. DSC is a lot more like DS9 than TNG. If you want TNG, watch the Orville.

Orville is MUCH better than TNG. (IMO).

 

[Mr Awe]

I guess some people are just content to share their likes and let them stand as a reflection of their reaction and some people their critiques. Sometimes it's not about defending or refuting but just expressing

Well, they're free to share but they should not be surprised when they're asked to defend them. This is a discussion board after all.

It's the accusations that are much more problematic though.

 

[Rahul]

Except that's not what happened. Lorca didn't inform a collaborator of his plans and didn't take him on a risky escape. Lorca would not be punished afterwards. In fact, it would've been massively incompetent of Lorca to involve a collaborator in an escape attempt.

You REALLY need to check up what the word "collaborateur" means, and in which types of context it is used. This is not one of them.