Lorca is a coward and murderer, how come he's a Starfleet Captain still??

[Agony_Boothb]

Lorca has obviously some reputation. His previous ship being destroyed, his crew lost might be as far as that reputation travelled - hence him being a survivor. The blowing up part might be where the devil is.

If Lorca is smart enough to suspect Ash is a spy why take a spy back with you?

Edit - mickmike, thanks for the re-watch report

No worries You should give it a re-watch when you get a chance though. It would be interesting to read your take on it with the theory that lorca might be lying in mind.

Lorca was using Tyler to escape. He knew that the Klingons would want a spy on Discovery, so they would need Lorca to escape. If Lorca tipped his hand and killed Tyler, then he'd probably be put in solitary confinement and tortured continually until he gave the Klingons what he wanted. It was a necessary evil. Further on down the line. Lorca could also use Tyler to feed false information to the Klingons or once he's revealed gain intel from Tyler on the Klingons.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Of course it does.

Most shows have multiple plots and subplots running. Even a by the numbers cop show like Hawaii 5-0 has subplots running under the the plot of the week.

 

[Refuge]

To keep an eye on him and feed him false information?

I don't get that. If Lorca knows or suspects he's a spy and he's essentially been cast out from the other Klingons then what is the purpose of keeping him around? Why not just imprison him, or given it is Lorca, dispense with Ash?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't get that. If Lorca knows or suspects he's a spy and he's essentially been cast out from the other Klingons then what is the purpose of keeping him around? Why not just imprison him, or given it is Lorca, dispense with him?

Better to use him for the Federation's gain. Not unknown in the world of espionage.

 

[Refuge]

Then turn him over to Starfleet, that would make sense. Keeping a spy close to secret technology is risky.

So is it the same actor who plays Tyler and Voq? Geeze is that why everyone has this theory, lol

 

[unimatrix7]

I think I'm starting to form a stronger impression of Lorca.

I think the whole point of his unprincipled approach to command and ethics is to ensure Georgiou continues to loom large as an influence over the crew, and Burnham in particular.

And also the audience, considering she generally made a strong impression on viewers in the short time we knew her. I know, I know - except you and you and you.

She's very much the principled Starfleet captain cut from the same cloth as every other Starfleet captain who had their own TV series. Her crew was warm and familial, but competent and brave like our Starfleet heroes have always been.

Lorca is, at minimum, not an easy man to like. There are signs that he's a poltroon and a warmonger. He can be petty and small. I don't see him rising to an occasion if confronted with a challenging situation, certainly not a moral or ethical one. Put him in Sisko's shoes when manoeuvring to bring Romulans into the Dominion War and he'd have done the same thing, but we'd have none of the torment and doubt that made those events so challenge and memorable. His crew is reflective of him. Do Saru's prey instincts maybe make him protective of Lorca out of a primal fear and understanding of what a man like that is capable of?

But Lorca existing in the same mould as Georgiou would've rendered her character redundant, which is problematic from a narrative perspective since Burnham's redemption arc is built around her fate at the Battle of the Binary Stars. And the show itself wants to orbit its narrative around Burnham.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Then turn him over to Starfleet, that would make sense. Keeping a spy close to secret technology is risky.

So is it the same actor who plays Tyler and Voq? Geeze is that why everyone has this theory, lol

Nah, it's a TV show. Our heroes get to do everything. Turning him over to Starfleet means they can't use him to feed false intelligence to the Klingons.

No idea.

 

[OpenMaw]

They're dropping so many hints towards Ash being Voq it's not even funny. The entire thing about her basically using him as a sex toy. "But we don't have enough equipment for that..." Huh. Well, maybe, just maybe Voq/Tyler was being coy! A half truth.

 

[Refuge]

They're dropping so many hints towards Ash being Voq it's not even funny. The entire thing about her basically using him as a sex toy. "But we don't have enough equipment for that..." Huh. Well, maybe, just maybe Voq/Tyler was being coy! A half truth.

I can't say the idea of male sexual abuse made toward any man let alone a prisoner did anything more than make the Klingons more hateful - and yes I know Klingon women have been portrayed in the future as being sexually aggressive, but Tyler being used as a sex toy (but really a spy) could have been a plot line to have him feeding back information. The equipment line was kind of lame given the implication that abuse is that specific and isn't restricted to matching exact parts.

I was just more curious having caught up on my reading if the rumours of Voq/Tyler are based on the obvious - eg: same actor. If that's the case then it means obviously Lorca would (if in fact he does 'know') need to be using in story information, not casting clues . Is Lorca guessing or has he intel we don't know about? Maybe he doesn't know a thing? And if he does, surely taking a viper back to the nest is dumb.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I can't say the idea of male sexual abuse made toward any man let alone a prisoner did anything more than make the Klingons more hateful - and yes I know Klingon women have been portrayed in the future as being sexually aggressive, but Tyler being used as a sex toy (but really a spy) could have been a plot line to have him feeding back information. The equipment line was kind of lame given the implication that abuse is that specific and isn't restricted to matching exact parts.

I was just more curious having caught up on my reading if the rumours of Voq/Tyler are based on the obvious - eg: same actor. If that's the case then it means obviously Lorca would (if in fact he does 'know') need to be using in story information, not casting clues . Is Lorca guessing or has he intel we don't know about? Maybe he doesn't know a thing? And if he does, surely taking a viper back to the nest is dumb.

Tyler saying that L'rell was abusing him sexually, was a cover to explain why he wasn't more injured. I think that lie in itself made Lorca suspicious. He seemed to know Klingons well enough that he found it pretty surprising a Klingon female would even want to have sex with human male (as he says, 'we don't have enough organs for ya'). I also think that the possibility of Tyler being a survivor from the Battle of the Binary's was a bit of a stretch for Lorca, maybe Tyler gave the wrong name for the Captain of the ship he served on? Lorca might have suspicions but not be 100% sure that Tyler is a spy yet. Another reason for taking Tyler might have been that he couldn't risk leaving a starfleet officer behind based on a hunch.

I can only speculate. Like everything else so far in DIS we probably won't get any answers right away

 

[Spot261]

I'm not sure about this Tyler as Voq thing. For one, surely Starfleet would have pretty good personnel records which would include safeguards against falsification, they aren't going to accept the word of some random guy they find in a klingon brig that he is a starfleet officer.

Secondly the fight in the corridor is hard to explain, she was attempting to prevent him leaving, despite the fact there were at that point no witnesses, he hit her repeatedly and with some venom prior to Lorca's return.

 

[Refuge]

To be honest if I hadn't been reading threads here my instincts didn't think, that is that Klingon guy in human form.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I'm not sure about this Tyler as Voq thing. For one, surely Starfleet would have pretty good personnel records which would include safeguards against falsification, they aren't going to accept the word of some random guy they find in a klingon brig that he is a starfleet officer.

Secondly the fight in the corridor is hard to explain, she was attempting to prevent him leaving, despite the fact there were at that point no witnesses, he hit her repeatedly and with some venom prior to Lorca's return.

Maybe there was a real Ash Tyler and Voq has been altered to look like him and maybe implanted with Tyler's memories. It's interesting that we didn't see voq this episode, despite him and L'rell being close and possibly lovers now.

 

[Spot261]

Maybe there was a real Ash Tyler and Voq has been altered to look like him and maybe implanted with Tyler's memories. It's interesting that we didn't see voq this episode, despite him and L'rell being close and possibly lovers now.

So why would she try to stop him? Perhaps they have fell out since the last episode?

 

[Snarfies]

Tyler is probably a changling so oeps talking about a sextoy. Could understand voq.

 

[Refuge]

Maybe there was a real Ash Tyler and Voq has been altered to look like him and maybe implanted with Tyler's memories. It's interesting that we didn't see voq this episode, despite him and L'rell being close and possibly lovers now.

So who is playing whom? If there is a fake Tyler who is really Voq who just happened to be lying in wait for Lorca who was also cunningly playing a game by setting himself up to be captured.. (good thing their manipulative plans coincided with each other!) Now fake Tyler is on board Discovery to feed back intel to whom? He's an outcast but whatever. And clever Lorca has an ex torchbearer scoping out his ship because that's a smart thing to do?

Really??

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Not to mention, Picard surrenders the Enterprise 20 minutes into the pilot episode. Great intro to our new hero.

I find it amusing how people talk about the "unlikability" of characters like Lorca and Burnham. The TNG crew took about 2 full seasons of 20+ episodes each before anyone became even remotely likable.

Picard was an uptight, stern, unlikable, preachy, self righteous horses ass for the better part of 2 years.

It's true that TNG took a couple of seasons to really get going. But arguing that the latest show is replicating the same sort of fuck-ups that previous shows made thirty years ago isn't that great an argument.

 

[WraithDukat]

"This droid has boundary issues" - Harry Mudd, right after Stuart brings him the cracker.

I'm rewatching now.

Cool.

I have issues with people harming other things as if they don't matter. Perhaps I over reacted.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Cool.

I have issues with people harming other things as if they don't matter. Perhaps I over reacted.

Well, it WAS still a childish and poorly considered thing to do.

 

[Mudd]

I'm not sure about this Tyler as Voq thing. For one, surely Starfleet would have pretty good personnel records which would include safeguards against falsification, they aren't going to accept the word of some random guy they find in a klingon brig that he is a starfleet officer.

I'm sorry, do you think these producers give a fuck about that kind of internal logic? Nothing we've seen so far supports that notion.