Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[XCV330]

The latter three yes the first two not so much which is a shame really, just imagine if the Klingons had spoken English from the start with Klingon subtitles and had used recognisable updated D7's and Birds of Prey at the battle of the binary stars.

There were vitriolic "fans" that would have hated the show no matter what (not speaking of here really, more other forums, youtube commenters, reddit, etc.) that then would have complained that the show should have had more Klingon in subtitles. And none of that Sans-Serif crap, be original whydoncha. I don't think there was any way the show could have swayed the true haters.

but yeah, I wish they'd done English from the get-go. The Klingonese stuff has been the shows weak point repeatedly.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

The latter three yes the first two not so much which is a shame really, just imagine if the Klingons had spoken English from the start with Klingon subtitles and had used recognisable updated D7's and Birds of Prey at the battle of the binary stars.

The Klingons, to me, weren't even the biggest issue with those first two episodes. That did drag the episodes down a lot, but making your main character a disobedient officer who has a mental breakdown was just not the best footing to go from.

 

[Jadeb]

No, not offensive and I didn't take it that way. It felt forced for lack of a better term - or maybe cringe-worthy.

I thought it was cringey too. It would have made more sense if she'd been shown to have a potty mouth in private conversation and it just sort of slipped out. But to randomly drop it in a workplace setting, when she doesn't normally talk that way, just made her seem dim.

Also, an overexcited "awesome" or the like would have worked just as well.

 

[Gonzo]

There were vitriolic "fans" that would have hated the show no matter what (not speaking of here really, more other forums, youtube commenters, reddit, etc.) that then would have complained that the show should have had more Klingon in subtitles. And none of that Sans-Serif crap, be original whydoncha. I don't think there was any way the show could have swayed the true haters.

but yeah, I wish they'd done English from the get-go. The Klingonese stuff has been the shows weak point repeatedly.

It made large blocks of the first two episodes really hard work to watch and enjoy, if the ship designs had at least stayed recognisable it would have helped the show immensely.

Just felt like a lost opportunity to put the shows best foot forward and play to its strengths.

As I have said before I don't usually get caught up in these issues as I don't normally really notice them, for me to notice for once and affect my viewing of the show speaks volumes.

 

[Gonzo]

The Klingons, to me, weren't even the biggest issue with those first two episodes. That did drag the episodes down a lot, but making your main character a disobedient officer who has a mental breakdown was just not the best footing to go from.

Personally I think they should have just started with episode three and left Burnhams backstory unknown, it could have been slowly revealed over the season and would have freed up two episodes for something else.

I dont think she had a breakdown myself, she just happened to realise what T'Kuvma was up to before anyone else.

 

[137th Gebirg]

It made large blocks of the first two episodes really hard work to watch and enjoy, if the ship designs had at least stayed recognisable it would have helped the show immensely.

My jury is still out on the Klingon capital ships. I want to see them in greater detail before making a final judgment about them. Until now, it's been fairly limited to distant long shots and super-close up shots, neither of which gives a decent impression of their overall shape and dimension.

Those two-man Klingon "Raider" ships, however, remind me of flying metallic peacocks. Really bad design, IMO. I get they're trying to do different things, but those? Just. No.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Personally I think they should have just started with episode three and left Burnhams backstory unknown, it could have been slowly revealed over the season and would have freed up two episodes for something else.

I dont think she had a breakdown myself, she just happened to realise what T'Kuvma was up to before anyone else.

Nerve-pinching your Commanding Officer and committing mutiny I would think is a sign of a breakdown!

And I agree with you on starting with the third episode. Start us in the shuttle getting picked up by Discovery, tell her story in little bits at a time using flashback, cutting out a lot of unnecessary things from those two episodes. It keeps the audience engaged and wondering what happened to her.

In that instance, I think the producers really pandered to those fans who need to know every single detail of everything in Star Trek (which I find laughable, since Trek is supposed to fire the imagination!)

 

[XCV330]

Yeah, I would agree with that, Context is for Kings was the first episode. I kind of wonder why they did things the way they did, but im sure they'll be some interview about it way down the line. There had to have been a lot of discussions about that, internally.

 

[Gepard]

I got that impression too. The Stamets in the mirror basically did everything the real-world Stamets did, just with about a 5-second lag. The mirror Stamets did nothing extra, or nothing less, to indicate it was a different individual with different motivational tendencies. So, yeah, I would say some kind of temporal phase-shift. Just can't remember if the phase shift was noticeable when he and the medical guy were having their conversation. If it was, why didn't he notice?

I thought Mirror!Stamets had a much more sinister smirk on his face than Real!Stamets did, like his mirror counterpart was thinking "I know something you don't." But maybe I'm just reading what I want into it.

 

[Nyotarules]

It's to stay in cannon. After all, it was mentioned in The Undiscovered Country that the Federation was a "homo sapiens only club."

When did all those aliens become homo sapiens

 

[Gonzo]

My jury is still out on the Klingon capital ships. I want to see them in greater detail before making a final judgment about them. Until now, it's been fairly limited to distant long shots and super-close up shots, neither of which gives a decent impression of their overall shape and dimension.

Those two-man Klingon "Raider" ships, however, remind me of flying metallic peacocks. Really bad design, IMO. I get they're trying to do different things, but those? Just. No.

From what I have seen so far T'Kuvma and Kols ship has a similar profile to the Negh'Var class, the Birds of Prey in the earlier episode look like Death Gliders from SG1 and the D7 in this episode looks like a Vor'Cha attack cruiser, even the new films kept to the classic updated design and the D7 looked great during the Kobayashi Maru test.

I havent had a close look at the ships that chased Lorca but someone mentioned that they looked like Peacocks...

I really cant see any value in the design being changed so completely, it would not have cost them more money to update the old designs or more time so what was the reasoning.

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

I thought Mirror!Stamets had a much more sinister smirk on his face than Real!Stamets did, like his mirror counterpart was thinking "I know something you don't." But maybe I'm just reading what I want into it.

I didn't think it sinister, just very... unsettling.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Yeah, I would agree with that, Context is for Kings was the first episode. I kind of wonder why they did things the way they did, but im sure they'll be some interview about it way down the line. There had to have been a lot of discussions about that, internally.

From interviews so far with Aaron Harberts and others in production, their structure was the first two episodes being a Prologue, with "Context is for Kings" being the "second pilot" or first chapter.

Personally, I don't think it was needed and they were trying to be a little too fancy with the series structure.

On another note, how did fan dancers become inspiration for Klingon Raider ships?

 

[XCV330]

When did all those aliens become homo sapiens

Vulcans were very worried about human's outpacing their own development in Enterprise. And if Vulcans had been holding their own against the Andorians and the Tellarites for that long, it implies humans were going to lap them before long, as well.
Maybe Humans are just on the average, better suited to a lot of star fleet officer tasks, especially command.

 

[XCV330]

On another note, how did fan dancers become inspiration for Klingon Raider ships?

So THAT'S what they were. i thought they were the little umbrellas you get in your drinks on vacation.

 

[Nyotarules]

Vulcans were very worried about human's outpacing their own development in Enterprise. And if Vulcans had been holding their own against the Andorians and the Tellarites for that long, it implies humans were going to lap them before long, as well.
Maybe Humans are just on the average, better suited to a lot of star fleet officer tasks, especially command.

As if all those other aliens had no command experience or expertise until humans came along....what a racist concept.

 

[Gonzo]

Nerve-pinching your Commanding Officer and committing mutiny I would think is a sign of a breakdown!

And I agree with you on starting with the third episode. Start us in the shuttle getting picked up by Discovery, tell her story in little bits at a time using flashback, cutting out a lot of unnecessary things from those two episodes. It keeps the audience engaged and wondering what happened to her.

In that instance, I think the producers really pandered to those fans who need to know every single detail of everything in Star Trek (which I find laughable, since Trek is supposed to fire the imagination!)

What do you do when you feel your commanding officer is making the wrong choices and something terrible is going to happen, you step up and take action with the best of intentions, it seems even Georgiou agreed in the end and boarded the Klingon ship to snatch T'Kuvma.

By then it was too late.

Yeah it could all have been woven into the episode as flashbacks.

Too many cooks in the kitchen during production is the probably cause.

 

[XCV330]

As if all those other aliens had no command experience or expertise until humans came along....what a racist concept.

Species-ist but what is wrong with that? If anything they should be thankful this version of humanity is gregarious and brings them along for the ride. Clearly these other species do have much to offer, especially Vulcans, or the federation would not work.

 

[Gonzo]

So THAT'S what they were. i thought they were the little umbrellas you get in your drinks on vacation.

I just cant see any Klingon flying around in fancy bright ships, especially ones that look like a Peacock.

 

[eschaton]

Yeah, I would agree with that, Context is for Kings was the first episode. I kind of wonder why they did things the way they did, but im sure they'll be some interview about it way down the line. There had to have been a lot of discussions about that, internally.

I can't help but wonder if people were overselling Bryan Fuller here as being the "good influence" on Discovery who is now gone. I mean he had a big hand in the first two episodes, which were a mess. And he was reportedly behind the Klingon redesign. Now that he's out of the picture, Discovery seems to be improving as a show and returning more to typical Trek roots.

I mean, I'll admit I didn't watch much of the later years of Voyager (I'm slowly going through the series now in my free time) but were his episodes really that much better than the norm for the series? He certainly isn't Peter Allen Fields anyway from what I have seen so far.