Discovery and "The Orville" Comparisons

[GeekUSACarl]

I, but doesn't shy away from actually challenging different beliefs. It has some interesting, thought provoking concepts, and fun.

id love to agree with you here and maybe im just a knucklehead but i do t see challenge at all. i see presenting a view in one persons kinda one dimensional view.

but hey all that matters is who gets what out of it.

 

[Mudd]

There's nothing one-dimensional in McFarlane's views of religion, though they don't represent the majority of people. Which, of course, is not his job.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I think you've fixed on a peculiar and inapplicable standard here - "mature" - which seems to mean something mysterious to you. I say "mysterious," because the story examples you've offered illustrate no maturity at all.

Cynicism is not mature. Acquiescence to evil behavior because Reasons is neither mature nor admirable.

SM is kind of the ambassador of immature humor in immature storytelling. this show is "slightly" more mature but lets be frank, the selling point and highlights are his brand of humor.

that aint a knock. there are FEW shows that can pull off a real mature show right next to real immature comedy. the only one off the too of my head is Boondocks and even thats hard to use as comparison cause its a cartoon.

but i do agree calling trek mature is silly. i mean it has a ton of mature moments but boy does it have some head scratchingly shallow ones.

 

[alex08060]

I think you've fixed on a peculiar and inapplicable standard here - "mature" - which seems to mean something mysterious to you. I say "mysterious," because the story examples you've offered illustrate no maturity at all.

Cynicism is not mature. Acquiescence to evil behavior because Reasons is neither mature nor admirable. Yet these are the things you cite.

I'm also not sure your descriptions show an understanding of what Sisko actually did in the episode that you keep pounding away on.

Nope, if Locra has the same scenario he is going to do what Sisko did. Picard will probably stop half way if The Maquis surrender fast enough. Need to face facts that orville is for less mature audience because I doubt that captain will ever destroyed colonies just to stop terror attacks.

 

[fireproof78]

id love to agree with you here and maybe im just a knucklehead but i do t see challenge at all. i see presenting a view in one persons kinda one dimensional view.

but hey all that matters is who gets what out of it.

I don't see a one dimensional, and not everything is presented as having a solution. "About a girl" is a good example of this. It may not be full commentary like other shows, but it doesn't rely upon easy pat answers either.

For me, the lack of the "wrap up and morale of the story" is something that I find immensely appealing.

 

[ELURIA]

Agreed! Axanar, Orville, it's all 'real' Trek while DSC sucks and betrays the very foundation of Trek.... give me a break. Just makes me dislike Axanar and Orville because of this attitude.....

Disliking things without experiencing them because of how others think/behave only hurts you in the long run

 

[BillJ]

Nope, if Locra has the same scenario he is going to do what Sisko did. Picard will probably stop half way if The Maquis surrender fast enough. Need to face facts that orville is for less mature audience because I doubt that captain will ever destroyed colonies just to stop terror attacks.

Lets step out into the real world for just a moment. You realize that bombing terrorists hideouts have proven ineffective time and again (they don't stop terror attacks), and is actually used as a recruiting tool by terrorists?

So the mature thing to do is to actually learn about your enemies culture. Dropping bombs is just a feel good measure, designed to make a population think their government is doing something.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

I like both shows.

I managed to catch some of The Orville at a friend's place on Star India's streaming service.

It's really bright, fun, optimistic, and clearly born out of MacFarlane's love of what TNG stood for:

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There was another speech at an awards ceremony where he heaped praise on TNG.

I thought it was a comedy, but it's becoming clearer it's a full sci-fi drama.

But I'm also enjoying Discovery. Provisionally.

It's doing exactly what forum members here wanted - we had arguments about the merits and demerits of Roddenberry's optimism - people wanted to make Starfleet 'flawed', full of characters who still display prejudice and who's views conflict openly, exactly what some forum members who dislike Roddenberry's vision of a mature society wanted. I am dubious about some of the science, but people said they wanted character above rational plotting, and that's what they got.

I just think the two approaches are different.

It's like that grand old rivalry in geekdom - Star Trek vs Star Wars.

In Star Trek you have a just, truthful and rational society that explores the cosmos in peace and guards against corruption of personality and stands in philosophical opposition and contrast to dark ideologies. In Star Wars you have people fighting for the birth of a just and rational society, amid the triumph of corruption and darkness of the human condition, unexpected good arising amid the triumph of entropic philosophies and ideals. One setting presents an example of a good society, the other the strife for one. The United Federation of Planets is what Luke Skywalker is fighting for. The corrupt Old Republic and descent into an Empire, is what Kirk and Picard aim to prevent, and contrast/oppose in the Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire, Ferengi Alliance, Cardassian Union, Dominion and Borg. It shows a functioning Republic.

Liz Miller writing for IndieWire compared the series to Star Trek ... She criticized the lack of creativity, the blatant imitation, and was surprised that the show is "uninterested in being a comedy".​

Erik Kain of Forbes, gave a positive review of the show with the observation that "All the optimism and sincerity and lightheartedness of Star Trek is here, and in many ways it's kind of wonderful. I'm honestly surprised something like this exists." He says the critics were wrong and suggests their opinions are based on disliking MacFarlane and his type of humor.​

The Orville is as TNG was - a really optimistic show that some critics who understood it's intent noted stands in contrast to the dreary side of sci-fi exemplified in BSG.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Need to face facts that orville is for less mature audience because I doubt that captain will ever destroyed colonies just to stop terror attacks.

I'm not the slightest bit interested in comparisons between The Orville and Discovery, but the idea that bloodthirsty killing of entire colonies of civilians in order to avenge (because it sure as hell won't "stop") terrorist attacks is somehow indicative of a more mature worldview has to be one of the more profoundly stupid things I've ever heard mentioned on this forum, and that is quite an accomplishment.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not the slightest bit interested in comparisons between The Orville and Discovery, but the idea that bloodthirsty killing of entire colonies of civilians in order to avenge (because it sure as hell won't "stop") terrorist attacks is somehow indicative of a more mature worldview has to be one of the more profoundly stupid things I've ever heard mentioned on this forum, and that is quite an accomplishment.

Is there a prize?

 

[Mudd]

Nope, if Locra has the same scenario he is going to do what Sisko did. Picard will probably stop half way if The Maquis surrender fast enough. Need to face facts that orville is for less mature audience because I doubt that captain will ever destroyed colonies just to stop terror attacks.

Okay, now you're just wandering through hypotheticals that apparently are meaningful to you but in fact have nothing to do with...anything.

 

[gamer1]

Orville is fun to watch, but it's a painful reminder how old Star Trek doesn't work today. Orville would have been great as normal Star Trek 30 years ago.

 

[fireproof78]

And yet surprisingly entertaining in 2017.

 

[mos6507]

Did you just match up 546 hours of Trek to 7 hours of The Orville and three series worth of depictions of the Bajorans versus two episodes of the Krill as if that's a fair comparison? C'mon, man. There were times the Bajorans were depicted as religious fanatics as well. If we took those episodes in isolation without waiting for the bigger picture would that be fair?

I think the depiction of the Narns vs. Centauris in Babylon 5 to have been the best "mature" treatment of war and the drivers of war that I've seen. The last two Planet of the Apes movies as well.

The fact of the matter is that humans are wired for tribalism. You see this in all sorts of ways, not just in all out war but in politics and sectarian Prime vs. Kelvin timeline drama here.

There is no utopian solution to war as long as human nature remains primal. There will always be the "in group" and the "out group" and a tendency to feel that the ends justifies the means (i.e. genocide). Compassion is reserved for those of the "in group". The "out group" are dehumanized and atrocities are rationalized.

What you get in The Orville is sort of a haiku version of the above topics. There isn't the runtime or the serial format to cover it to the extent it was in Babylon 5. That doesn't necessarily make it bad. It's going for breadth and not depth.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm not the slightest bit interested in comparisons between The Orville and Discovery, but the idea that bloodthirsty killing of entire colonies of civilians in order to avenge (because it sure as hell won't "stop") terrorist attacks is somehow indicative of a more mature worldview has to be one of the more profoundly stupid things I've ever heard mentioned on this forum, and that is quite an accomplishment.

I feel weird as the guy who dropped the show after that episode defending it but for all of Seth's misrepresentation of the Middle East, the show made it clear their actions didn't in any way make things better as it just radicalized all the people who lost their families on that ship.

 

[alex08060]

Okay, now you're just wandering through hypotheticals that apparently are meaningful to you but in fact have nothing to do with...anything.

And yet we have Orville fans saying Star Trek is all about having fantasy good endings while Orville is more realistic, that is complete BS.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think it goes this:

Discovery is trying to be dark and serious Trek which tackles deep social stuff.

Orville is trying to be light and fluffy Trek which tackles deep social stuff.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I think Discovery is only 'Dark' at the moment due to the nature of the story arc for this season. I think this quote from Captain Georgiou gives a hint to the direction the showrunners want to take the show in:
"Hello Michael. I hope that wherever this finds you, you are well. I imagine you have your own command now. The captain of your own ship. I have always tried to show you by example. The best way to know yourself is to know others. You are curious, an explorer. So I am leaving you my most beloved possession, handed down through my family for centuries. My hope is that you will use it to continue to investigate the mysteries of the universe, both inside and out, and keep your eyes and heart open always. Goodbye, Michael, and good luck. Know that I am as proud of you as if you were my own daughter. Take good care. But most importantly, take good care of those in your care. "

I don't think Discovery will be as light-hearted or comedic as The Orville, but then I don't expect The Orville to be as serious as Discovery. There are ways to explore serious issues using comedy and in fact some of the best comedy comes from the exploration of societal issues. I feel like I've said this a million times but Discover and The Orville, complement each other. I'm pretty happy to have them both. I like seriousness, but I also love dick jokes. For me it's win win

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think Discovery is dark as a necessity of what it's objective goal is: which is to test the values of the Federation and Starfleet under assault by an ideological component.

Basically, the show is about seeing how the Federation can stand outside of paradise.

Like DS9 or the year of hell.

 

[Mudd]

I think Discovery is only 'Dark' at the moment due to the nature of the story arc for this season.

I don't know if it's dark, but it's pretty dim.