Exactly. Finding common ground, even with individuals that I disagree with, is essential.
Discovery and "The Orville" Comparisons
- Thread starter Jedi_Master
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There were times when the bajoran fanatics are portrayed as fanatics. Mostly the Bajorans were portrayed as a varied and diverse culture of more and less orthodox people.
I don't remember the show taking any sort of position that religion = fanaticism, or that advancement = less religion.
I'm watching one episode right now about Keiko's school and the fanaticism over education. The episode is doing a wonderful job portraying all three sides of the truth.
Where did this episode take the position that all religion is fanaticism? It gave a single example of a theocratic government and specifically set up the premise that they can hopefully find a peace if both sides overcame their ignorance about each other and established a dialogue. You're being overly defensive on behalf of religion in general when the episode simply dealt with one facet of it from one species, and even with their religion involving extremism, the Union still wished to make peace with them by coming to a greater understanding of their religion, not by eliminating it.
Which was precisely the mission statement Mercer was given by his commanding officer in this episode.
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the only two times religion is brought up, is with identifying oppression or fanaticism,
and very specifically, and early on in the last episode it was mentioned that usually a more advanced culture moves away from religion, then, the only counter or offering showing a religious society is terroristic and fanatical.
I think it's inching more clear that the politics are creeping in.
I'm not saying they are saying all religious are fanatics, I was pointing out that this wasn't how Bajorans are portrayed, and also pointing out that Trek has a history of giving weighted meanings to both sides and exploring the middle.
So far with the orville it has a "religion is bad" vibe.
While reading this thread I can't get John Lennons song Imagine out of my head.
That was Roddenberry's stance as well.
I just don't know how someone can post such rubbish. We're equating killing fictional children in entertainment as being "deep"?
They've had six episodes. Give me a fucking break.
And certainly not the execution. Again, Bajorans are a clear example on their own, many other species depicted as religious were more varied than that as well.
They've had six episodes. Give me a fucking break.
DS9 established this within just a handful of episodes fairly easily, a spiritual people, more complex than "religion baaaaad, advanced societies don't do religion"
I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing in each episode. From what should I be giving you a fucking break btw? This is just a conversation on the internet. If you need a "fucking break" you can just take one yourself.
It is just non-sensical that you get that religion is going to be bad for all time on The Orville, because six episodes in it hasn't been presented in a manner you find acceptable.
And, like it or not, The Orville hit the nail on the head with "If the Stars Should Appear...". Religion is manipulated a great deal by many with much at stake or to gain. The Prosperity Gospel anyone?
I never said for all time
I'm saying this is what they've done so far. They done nothing that a more mature show like Trek has done which is present a 3 dimensional issue with three dimensions. Orville hit one very biased nail on a very biased head. Religion is also, not manipulated a great deal by billions, it binds many good people together to do many good things.
So far, all Orville has done is state "advanced societies usually ditch it" and the only 2 times mentioned, it was shown as military oppressive extremism. Which is fine if that's what they are going for, I'm just pointing out that Trek did it much better with much more diversity in not just people but the notion itself.
It isn't about what they've done in "six episodes" it's about what they've done so far when they've done it.
Then again Orville is a comedy, it's supposed to be funny, it doesn't have to be more than superficial.
In If the Stars Should Appear there were both fanatical followers of the Godlike figure Dorahl and people known as "Reformers" who believed there might be more beyond their habitat but still believed in the same God Dorahl who it was later discovered was the original captain of their generational ship. So that presented different facets of religious belief, moderate and fanatical.
I'm amused by the idea that "it's only six episodes-give it a break" vs. Discovery "Four episodes in and it is awful!"
These things amuse me.
Well, they're two entirely different things. People are judging the quality of the four episodes of DSC they've already seen versus judging how religion will be depicted throughout the entirety of Orville based on how it's been depicted in only the first six episodes (and actually only two episodes have featured religion prominently). On the other hand, if someone said the first six episodes of The Orville sucked I wouldn't agree with them but that would be a perfectly legitimate opinion.
By the way, I know you're not just referring to me, but since I'm the primary one making that argument, I should make it clear that I don't think DSC is "awful." I've given it mostly B and C grades so far and am still invested in watching it, so while it hasn't blown me away or anything so far, I'm not writing off the entire show.
No, I was not referring to you at all. My apologies for any insinuation. I was more observing what I have read around the Internet, on Reddit, and other forums.
That said, I don't feel the need to compare the two-at all. To me, comparison is robbing joy of something by saying it must be something else. If I don't enjoy something, then I'll give my reasons for it, not just a "Well, "X" did it better."
Don't know if that makes any sense at all. I think I'm coming down with a head cold and my ability to communicate seems to suffer for it...
It is pretty obvious the orville isn’t a successor to Star Trek like what many orville fans claim it to be. It is comedy that rips off Star Trek that Seth adepts with his own interpretation of philosophy.
Simple fact is discovery is behind a paywall while orville is free to watch. Not because discovery is inferior to Orville.
Simple fact is discovery is behind a paywall while orville is free to watch. Not because discovery is inferior to Orville.
I loved the Orville.
But I'm dropping it.
It's a nice enough show but the latest episode seems to indicate taking stabs at religion seems to be Seth's go-to-model here and that's his opinion but so is mine for not giving him my time.
Maybe I'm a hypocrite and I probably wouldn't have a problem if he spread these out a bit more.
Edit:
It seems I'm not the only one. Mind you, maybe I'm wrong and I can always check back to see if it's different but hey.
But I'm dropping it.
It's a nice enough show but the latest episode seems to indicate taking stabs at religion seems to be Seth's go-to-model here and that's his opinion but so is mine for not giving him my time.
Maybe I'm a hypocrite and I probably wouldn't have a problem if he spread these out a bit more.
Edit:
It seems I'm not the only one. Mind you, maybe I'm wrong and I can always check back to see if it's different but hey.
I remember the production staff talked about how they thought the episode would be incredibly controversial but it completely passed people on by.
They made a mistake from viewing it from the perspective of "Picard is against religion" when the religious members of the audience took it from, "Picard believes it's wrong to impersonate a god." It's kind of like Babylon Five where Garbaldi is dumbstruck to find out his immediate subordinate is religious when he goes into an anti-religious rant.
Mind you, some of my favorite episodes of TNG dealt with religion but usually from the perspective of the aliens. For example, "Rightful Heir" which talked about Jesus returning via CLONE. I was horrified by Picard's decision but I understood what the episode was going for.
I also note the episode which most ticked off atheist fans was never the Q episodes (which might as well be episodes which affirm the existence of a god--albeit an asshole trickster one) but "The Chase" which was trying to explain something in-universe and ended up coming off like an endorsement of intelligent design.
Deep Space Nine is also out of step with the rest of Trek in large part because while it doesn't necessarily ENDORSE religion, it also shows it's not going anywhere anytime soon and that people will always get some meaning out of it good and bad.
Did you give up on Star Trek after "Who Watches the Watchers". I also don't get the love Deep Space Nine gets for its views on religion. It essentially tells you the Bajorans aren't worshiping a God, but a bunch of aliens. Aliens who allowed them to be tortured and murdered by the Cardassians while they sat in the Celestial Temple and watched.
I mentioned the fact Who Watches the Watchers didn't actually got a very good message about it since Picard's actions would be identical if he was a theist (Which he obviously is not). Basically, because why in the world would one want to impersonate a god?
Deep Space Nine I also think actually kind of poked fun at the central conceit of the Federation's interpretation of the Wormhole aliens because they ARE Bajor's gods. Just because they're scientific and provable doesn't make them any less deities in the eyes of the Bajorans. I mean, it's hard to the series is against religion when it ends with Space Jesus ascending to Wormhole Heaven after defeating Pah-Satan.
But it's a matter of personal choice rather than me being "offended" as I don't watch many overtly religious shows either. Seth's handling of the subject just rub me the wrong way.
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Weirdly, I'm going to reveal myself to be an enormous hypocrite here as one of my favorite VOY episodes is "Mortal Coil" which is an episode which is a mature tasteful handling of a character becoming an atheist. Neelix loses his faith after a near-death experience and copes with it by trying to live on his life as best he can.
I also like "Barge of the Dead" even if it's inherently more ridiculous and has the opposite message.
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