It's not an in-universe thing. Our culture has changed. Trek storytelling merely reflects this.
Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time
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It's not an in-universe thing. Our culture has changed. Trek storytelling merely reflects this.
I understand that, but when the producers spouted off on how this series would fit in between, then some of the characterizations should be fitting in between.
The Federation and Starfleet Command are in shock. they haven't had a war like this in 100 (well 90) years. It's one point they keep forcing home with the Bring scene in the very first episode that has the injured navigator saying: "What are we doing here? Why is this happening? We're explorers, not soldiers..."
You also see it ion this last episode - they had a Fleet of ships blockading and protecting the Corvan II Dilithium mine. The Klingons attacked and wiped it out. All the 'peaceful explorers' are being patriotic and doing their duty and trying to protect the Federation - but they aren't up to the task and are getting wiped out.
The Starfleet personnel you see in TOS 10 years are the SURVIVORS or ones who had a soldiers mindset and gained the ability to fight back effectively. They also went on to train and instruct the new Cadets coming into the Academy so those Cadets are going to echo that mindset. 100 years after that, we again have Captain diplomats like Picard willing to sacrifice Federation property and the lives of their crew (on many an occasion) to stand up for their 'principles'.
We're told that Georgiou is also a soldier by Burnham. Obviously Starfleet found someone to fight during those one hundred years.
Yes they did - Lorca is one as well. I'm not saying Starfleet doesn't have them; I'm saying they aren't as prevalent in Starfleet 'culture' at the time the war starts - but they WILL BE after the war; and that's why we see the attitudes and officer actions we have 10 years later in TOS. Captain Georgiou was unlucky in that she was caught in the transition. Had she been in full Command AFTER a war like this started, yeah, she would be one of the survivors because she could use that 'soldier mentality' once she was sure it was needed. She didn't want to be the one to start a war - but once war is declared, yes, she'd carry out whatever actions needed to win it.
I think you're reaching to try to explain something that really makes no sense. Space is vast, there would be no sense in not teaching your cadets how to fight and win a war if it happens. You still have the Romulans and Klingons (who apparently still attack periodically) on your borders. As well as the Tholians.
Even in the 24th century, Picard fought the Cardassians prior to the show. Sisko the Tzenkethi, I know Janeway fought someone.
Kirk also said, "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat", echoing that statement in "Errand of Mercy"
The difference is - right after a war you have actual veterans (who survived) and they will teach what they know.
The only story we have of Picard from the Cardassian war was from TNG's - "The Wounded" where he states:
^^^
And given Pacard's actions (as he recalls them in dream flashbacks) from TNG's "The Battle" I have tio wonder if Command said, "Oh, and lower your shields when you meet them..." <--- I think that was a classic 'Picard Maneuver' and something Picard did on his own. Picard ISN'T a soldier, he's just lucky. Again, given the snippets we've heard of his career, I have to wonder WHY he was picked to Command (at the time) one of the most powerful/heavily armed/most advanced ships in the Fleet. His military record (lost his last ship in battle before returning fire) as well as the Cardassian 'peace attempt' <-- He's not the person I'd put in charge of such a ship. He seems to care more about his principles in most situations, then his ship or crew; and even in the 24th century - a couple of Starfleet Admirals called him out on some of his actions in later seasons.
Sisko was always a soldier first. We see that in the pilot of DS9 at "The battle of Wolf 359"; he oversaw ansd championed te development of the Defiant class, etc.
Janeway was just plain Bi-polar. (or at least written that way)
Again, I'm not saying EVERY Captain in the ST: D era is an explorer; BUT I'd say Starfleet had more 'Explorer' minded Captains prior to the war, than after; and that's why the mindset of Starfleet Command is different in the actual TOS era.
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I understand your explanations, but I don't agree. There is simply no way Starfleet was reduced in numbers as far as those who knew tactics and ship to ship combat. Like mentioned above, tactics were required reading at the Academy, and there is simply no way a majority of those in Starfleet are not able or forgot how to fight.
Well, in two Kurtzman productions now (Into Darkness and Discovery) you have had two characters making statements of "We don't do that. We're Starfleet. We're not the military."
My main objection to that statement has been "Then who IS?" If there's another force that is actually a military, fine. But if when your people go to war and you are the one that goes to fight then yes, you are the military.
I often hear the argument "Well, they're not the military because it isn't their PRIMARY mission." Except, as we see in Disco (and TOS, and TNG, and DS9...), it is the mission that takes precedent over all others. Being an explorer never ever gets done before defense. If there's war, or even a border incursion, they strap on the phasers and go defend the homeworlds.
I'm not sure that it is a problem that the SF personel are being shown as being at crosspurposes. Some of them join because of the military aspect. Some because it affords them better opportunities for scientific research. Etc. The series is simply delving harder into the issue.
The debate over what is the essence of Starfleet is almost as old as the franchise itself. Even Kirk called it "an instrument of civilization," not a military force.
The debate over what is the essence of Starfleet is almost as old as the franchise itself. Even Kirk called it "an instrument of civilization," not a military force.
It's different to read about it - then to actually experience it. Also, it's likely Klingon War tactics are different and will be added to what's taught to Cadets after the war. And yes, prior to the I'm sure Starfleet personnel and Captains are trained to fight; BUT again, in real war, more often then not, the ones who survive from the start to the end will have developed an actual mindset based on experience that can't be gained from a book on tactics or however many simulations you run.
Based on how bumbling most of the crews we've seen so far have been, there will be 5 people left by the time TOS era hits.
(OK, 203 lives left, since Enterprise is out under Pike's command)
Mind you, the one time we actually saw Pike he was considering quitting because he had gotten a landing party massacred . . .
I just let out a morbid laugh at that! Great timing!Mind you, the one time we actually saw Pike he was considering quitting because he had gotten a landing party massacred . . .
he also called it an integrated service (as to the distinction between army and navy)
I think only those who went to Command school learned that lesson
they do switch shirts, don't they? isn't sulu wearing all three of them (one at a time, obviously)
