Speculation on other Starships we might encounter?

[Timo]

The Federation and its Starfleet do believe in battleships; it's just unclear whether this is an exclusively foreign type of ship, or also part of the Starfleet arsenal. They also believe in battlecruisers (and the Klingons liken Kirk's ship to one); in heavy and light cruisers, frigates and destroyers (and Starfleet possesses examples of each, even if the latter two are not unambiguously associated with any design); and in certain futuristic types such as explorers.

None of this helps much in defining what the TOS Starfleet had or didn't have. We saw extremely little of that organization, and many interpretations of our necessarily biased view can accommodate ships much bigger than Kirk's, a fleet of thousands, a great number of Vulcan ringships, whatever the greater story needs.

Now the greater story is DSC. Can any interpretation accommodate a large number of ships different in design from the ones seen so far in other spinoffs? I don't see any difficulty as such: DSC is already guaranteed to give us the distinct Shenzhou and Discovery aesthetics side by side, no different from the TNG era having a number of styles (some of which we eventually learned were "older" or "newer", and DSC isn't letting us do that quite yet). Older designs have disappeared without explanation before, so there's no problem with ENT or Kelvin styles being absent, either; as always, the rationale is left as an exercise to the audience.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tuskin38]

(and the Klingons liken Kirk's ship to one)

Yeah, but those are the klingons, they probably consider everything to be a warship.

The starfleet designation for the Constitution was just heavy cruiser. Though that designation comes from a computer screen image that was ripped from the TOS tech manual.

The Ambassador Class was verbally called a Heavy Cruiser in TNG.

Nothing in Starfleet (prime universe) has ever been called a battleship or Battlecruiser on screen.

This doesn't stop Discovery or any other future canon source from adding them though, I'm just saying currently there are none.

There is allegedly a radio voice in TMP that says "Dreadnought USS Entente Calling...NCC two one two zero", but it is hard to hear, and according to M-A, in the Director's Cut release the word 'dreadnought' was made even harder to hear.

The Entente, with that registry number is one of the Federation-Class ships in the tech manual.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

How does inflating the numbers help? The defender has 1000 ships spread across their territories, attacker will have 20 ships, or defenders has 10 000 attacker 2000. The situation remains the same, it is only the relative sizes of the fleets that matter.

I took your numbers. You claimed star fleet had a max of 100 ships, one ship to defend every ten worlds. Those are your words and your numbers. 20 ships, in a fleet is all you need to kill the federation. You can never get y a feet to match them in time to stop them. You scattered the fleet across space, and it takes time to gather them. They do not have the uber speed of TNG ships to fall back on. Those 20 ships in an enemy fleet could hunt and kill a vast part of your fleet before you could stop them. And once they have orbit, they have your worlds. Its harder to dislodge an enemy one they are dug in. The federation will lose worlds and will not be able to retake them.

They are? All of them? When was this said?

We have two examples. ENT and TOS era. The ship from ENT was underarmed and easy prey to a small ship. The Cargo ship from TAS, which is TOS era was unarmed. We see it in the remastered TOS series.

I just understand that there are jobs that can be dealt with other ships than starships. Starships are the big guns.

And that would still mean a massive fleet, which you keep saying is not allowed. Frigates, destroyers, light cruisers, Corvettes and escorts would inflate starfleet far larger than you want.

And you really do not engage with the main point, which is what we actually see on TOS/movies. It is a common situation that there is some trouble on/near some fed world (even Earth) and Enterprise, a designated exploration vessel has to rush to help. And quite often they're the only one who can make it. This to me tells that there certainly are not fleets, not even single starships assigned to defend these worlds on permanent basis.

You are speaking bad plot here. All you have is bad plot, speed of polt stuff. You have nothing else to defend your concept of a tiny fleet. Do you know what a cruiser is? what it does? You do not seem to understand what the role a cruiser has.

The federation doesn’t have any battleships or dreadnoughts in canon

In the alternate reality of yesterday’s enterprise the enterprise was called a battleship (or was it battle cruiser?) but that was an alternate reality

We hear of one in TMP or one of the other movies. They give the Entente as a dreadnought. This is a battleship or larger, depending on how you take it. They more or less canonized those old tech manual designs ( which included a scout) when they used them on screen in TWoK and SFS.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Oh those are sexy, sexy beasts. This is the first time I have been tempted to buy one of those. Someone put the finished discovery up in another thread, just lovely.

 

[Longinus]

I took your numbers. You claimed star fleet had a max of 100 ships, one ship to defend every ten worlds. Those are your words and your numbers. 20 ships, in a fleet is all you need to kill the federation. You can never get y a feet to match them in time to stop them. You scattered the fleet across space, and it takes time to gather them. They do not have the uber speed of TNG ships to fall back on. Those 20 ships in an enemy fleet could hunt and kill a vast part of your fleet before you could stop them. And once they have orbit, they have your worlds. Its harder to dislodge an enemy one they are dug in. The federation will lose worlds and will not be able to retake them.

Do you not understand my question? How does inflating the numbers change this? If Starfleet can have more ships, then certainly the enemies can too. Only the relative number matter.

We have two examples. ENT and TOS era. The ship from ENT was underarmed and easy prey to a small ship. The Cargo ship from TAS, which is TOS era was unarmed. We see it in the remastered TOS series.

TAS ship is similar but not the same as Antares in TOS. TAS one was a robot ship without a crew, I wouldn't trust weapons to TOS era AI either.

And that would still mean a massive fleet, which you keep saying is not allowed. Frigates, destroyers, light cruisers, Corvettes and escorts would inflate starfleet far larger than you want.

This whole thing started about you claiming that only twelve Constitution class ships was stupid. I said it wasn't, if there were only about hundred capital ships. I never said there would be no ships of other type, I explicitly said that there would be. Though of course not all Federation ships are Starfleet ships. But regardless how large the Federation or the fleet is, the fleet is obviously thinly spread, as in case of emergency there are no capable ships stationed to defend planets or fleets coming to rescue.

You are speaking bad plot here. All you have is bad plot, speed of polt stuff. You have nothing else to defend your concept of a tiny fleet. Do you know what a cruiser is? what it does? You do not seem to understand what the role a cruiser has.

This is getting tiresome. You're dismissing the primary source as bad plot. It is only bad plot because it doesn't support your giant fantasy fleet. I am not interested in discussing your fan fiction and you're obviously not discussing Star Trek as you constantly keep ignoring what actually happens on Star Trek. There doesn't seem to be much point to continue this.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Do you not understand my question? How does inflating the numbers change this? If Starfleet can have more ships, then certainly the enemies can too. Only the relative number matter.

Its not about inflation of numbers. Its about the freaking size you cover.At a 1000 worlds you need a massive navy or anyone can take you. You do not have ship numbers, you have this fan theory of an unreasonably tiny starfleet. which you change all the time. We have a solid idea of the UPF size, so we have a solid grasp of the size of a fleet needed to cover it.

Inflation would be " We have 1'000 worlds so need a million ships"

TAS ship is similar but not the same as Antares in TOS. TAS one was a robot ship without a crew, I wouldn't trust weapons to TOS era AI either.

And its unarmed. You asked for unarmed or under armed ships, I gave you two examples.

This whole thing started about you claiming that only twelve Constitution class ships was stupid. I said it wasn't, if there were only about hundred capital ships. I never said there would be no ships of other type, I explicitly said that there would be. Though of course not all Federation ships are Starfleet ships. But regardless how large the Federation or the fleet is, the fleet is obviously thinly spread, as in case of emergency there are no capable ships stationed to defend planets or fleets coming to rescue.

Yes and it still is super silly. 12 classes of one type is either super old, failed or unreasonable. A cruiser is Not a capital ship, its a cruiser. A capital ship in a space navy would be something a lot larger and more powerful than a cruiser. You claimed a tiny navy, which then you wanted to expand.

A cruiser is not a ship you stick in fleets. Its one you send on solo missions. Which is why you always see them alone, as that is what they do. Its what they are designed to do, its what the name Cruiser means. At a time of war you pull cruisers back into the fleet, but normally they are "cruising about" ranging on solo missions.

This is why they seem "thin" because that is what they do. They are solo assignments, the coveted independent command.

This is getting tiresome. You're dismissing the primary source as bad plot. It is only bad plot because it doesn't support your giant fantasy fleet. I am not interested in discussing your fan fiction and you're obviously not discussing Star Trek as you constantly keep ignoring what actually happens on Star Trek. There doesn't seem to be much point to continue this.

Yes, you falling back on a bad plot is tiresome. You have nothing else to go on. Your fan fiction is what we are talking about. You keep changing your mind, you do not know what a capital ship is or what a cruiser is designed to do. So you have built this fan theory and it does not live up to debate.

 

[Longinus]

Its not about inflation of numbers. Its about the freaking size you cover.At a 1000 worlds you need a massive navy or anyone can take you.

Anyone who? If the enemy doesn't have any more ships, then they can't.

And its unarmed. You asked for unarmed or under armed ships, I gave you two examples.

Was it stated that Antares was unarmed?

Yes and it still is super silly. 12 classes of one type is either super old, failed or unreasonable. A cruiser is Not a capital ship, its a cruiser. A capital ship in a space navy would be something a lot larger and more powerful than a cruiser.

Cruiser is a capital ship if it is among the best ships in your fleet. Enterprise certainly was one of the best ships in the fleet.

You claimed a tiny navy, which then you wanted to expand.

No. I said there would be roughly hundred capital ships i.e. about hundred ships roughly on par with Enterprise (though not quite, only those eleven other Connies could match it before Excelsior.) I am not counting ships like Antares or runabouts and shuttles here.

In Discovery we will see bunch of TOS(ish) era Federation ships, so presumably that's what those other non-Constitution class capital ships in the fleet would be.

A cruiser is not a ship you stick in fleets. Its one you send on solo missions. Which is why you always see them alone, as that is what they do. Its what they are designed to do, its what the name Cruiser means. At a time of war you pull cruisers back into the fleet, but normally they are "cruising about" ranging on solo missions.

This is why they seem "thin" because that is what they do. They are solo assignments, the coveted independent command.

But there is no indication that any extensive peace time defensive fleets exist. We never see any, none are mentioned, when the Klingons or the Gorn appear, it is this lone cruiser which has to rush to rescue.

.

Yes, you falling back on a bad plot is tiresome. You have nothing else to go on.

Indeed, my theory of the fleet size is based on what we actually see on Star Trek. How silly of me![/QUOTE]

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Anyone who? If the enemy doesn't have any more ships, then they can't.

You gave 1 ship per 10 planets. When you ship one off to explore, now its 1 ship per 20 planets in some sectors. This is common sense. You do not need more ships than the UPF, you ship need to put them in a fleet and you win.

Was it stated that Antares was unarmed?

We can see it is. We have the model, no phaser banks, no Torpedo tubes. And you are shifting the goalpost, again.

Cruiser is a capital ship if it is among the best ships in your fleet. Enterprise certainly was one of the best ships in the fleet.

No, they are not. They are not ships of the line, which is where the term comes from.They are cruisers, they have a set role. Look the term up, a cruiser by definition is not a capital ship. Those are Battlecrusiers( pocket battleships) Battleships and aircraft carriers.

No. I said there would be roughly hundred capital ships i.e. about hundred ships roughly on par with Enterprise (though not quite, only those eleven other Connies could match it before Excelsior.) I am not counting ships like Antares or runabouts and shuttles here.

You do not even understand what a capital ship is. A cruiser, even a heavy cruiser is not a capital ship. They are cruisers. And no, they do not say only 11 other ships could match her. They state only 11 others like her. She is not said to be the biggiest, most powerful or even fastest( until later and that is a speed trial). That is all non-canon fan theory. She is a 20 year old heavy cruiser that on screen they say only 11 are left ins service, that is it.

In Discovery we will see bunch of TOS(ish) era Federation ships, so presumably that's what those other non-Constitution class capital ships in the fleet would be.

Most of us always assumed starfleet had many other classes. other types of cruisers, frigates, corvettes, escorts, destroyers, and maybe some capital ships such as carriers and battleships.

But there is no indication that any extensive peace time defensive fleets exist. We never see any, none are mentioned, when the Klingons or the Gorn appear, it is this lone cruiser which has to rush to rescue.

We never see anything. there is zero evidence it does not exist as well. We see a single old cruiser doing what cruisers are designed to do. We see some unarmed transports, but nothing else. The movies we see destroyers, and scouts and cargo ships and even a dreadnought talked about.

You do not understand what a cruiser is still. Even after I have set and explained it. Look these terms up.

.

Indeed, my theory of the fleet size is based on what we actually see on Star Trek. How silly of me!

At lest you admit its a fan theory. And its based off you not understanding what a cruiser is , what its role is and the size of the federation. Not being mean here, but your fan theory is based off ignorance.

 

[Longinus]

You gave 1 ship per 10 planets. When you ship one off to explore, now its 1 ship per 20 planets in some sectors. This is common sense. You do not need more ships than the UPF, you ship need to put them in a fleet and you win.

So let's say Klingons do this and they have no more ships than Feds. They leave their whole home space completely defenceless, and then it gets conquered by Romulans.

Absolute numbers of ships really do not affect this scenario, only relative numbers do. Even if there were ten thousand ships in the fleet, ten ships defending each planet, and the enemy has ten thousand ships too, they can overpower those ten ships defending single planet easily by pooling hundred or even thousand ships in a fleet and attacking with those exactly the same way as you suggest would happen with lesser ship numbers.

We can see it is. We have the model, no phaser banks, no Torpedo tubes.

You do realise that those are not visible on original Enterprise either?

And you are shifting the goalpost, again.

No.

No, they are not. They are not ships of the line, which is where the term comes from.They are cruisers, they have a set role. Look the term up, a cruiser by definition is not a capital ship. Those are Battlecrusiers( pocket battleships) Battleships and aircraft carriers.

I know what ther term means, they're the ships that form the backbone of your fleet. Furthermore, you're overly fixated on modern naval usage of term cruiser and Enterprise was rarely referred as such anyway.

And no, they do not say only 11 other ships could match her. They state only 11 others like her. She is not said to be the biggiest, most powerful or even fastest( until later and that is a speed trial).

Powerful is certainly heavily implied, fastest is clearly stated.

We never see anything. there is zero evidence it does not exist as well.

There are several situations where this huge defence would come up if it really existed, yet it doesn't. Where were the ships defending Cestus III? Where were the ships defending the Romulan border in 'Balance of Terror'? Where were the ships defending Earth in TMP or 'Generations'?

At lest you admit its a fan theory.

Of course is a fan theory. As long as the absolute numbers are not stated on screen, no one can really have anything else. But my theory is based on what actually happens on Star Trek.

 

[Tuskin38]

We can see it is. We have the model, no phaser banks, no Torpedo tubes.

The original Connie doesn't have those either.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

So let's say Klingons do this and they have no more ships than Feds. They leave their whole home space completely defenceless, and then it gets conquered by Romulans.

Absolute numbers of ships really do not affect this scenario, only relative numbers do. Even if there were ten thousand ships in the fleet, ten ships defending each planet, and the enemy has ten thousand ships too, they can overpower those ten ships defending single planet easily by pooling hundred or even thousand ships in a fleet and attacking with those exactly the same way as you suggest would happen with lesser ship numbers.

No, because they are not that stupid as you want the UPF to be. We know they cover a smaller area and we know they do beefy boarder fleets. You are trying to defend your silly theory. If the Klingons have just 100 ships, all they need do is pull 20 off a safe edge or the middle and they have a good shot at grabbing a few dozen federation worlds.

You can not defend your tiny fleet theory by claiming the other guy is just as stupid.

You do realise that those are not visible on original Enterprise either?

Fair point on the Banks, the tubes you can see. Still its an under armed ship, which is what you asked for.

I know what ther term means, they're the ships that form the backbone of your fleet. Furthermore, you're overly fixated on modern naval usage of term cruiser and Enterprise was rarely referred as such anyway.

No, you do not know what it means, the terms in TOS was pulled out of the then current wet navies. She is a cruiser, not a capital ship and the used her just like a cruiser.


[

Powerful is certainly heavily implied, fastest is clearly stated.

It was implied it was still a powerful, if old design. It was never stated until after the ref=build it was "fastest". You are holding onto fan canon here. She was a 20 year old and rugged heavy cruiser. She was not the flag ship or top of the line. Kirk was not a massive start yet, he was a up and comer with at lest one command under him( IIRC) they gave a 20 year old heavy cruiser.

There are several situations where this huge defence would come up if it really existed, yet it doesn't. Where were the ships defending Cestus III? Where were the ships defending the Romulan border in 'Balance of Terror'? Where were the ships defending Earth in TMP or 'Generations'?

You can not defend your theory based off bad plots. TNG they got 39 ships like nothing, FCT they had over 20 in sole itself, before the E showed up. We both know why you see no other ships in TOS the plot and budget made it so. You can not defend you theory by basing it on plot.

Of course is a fan theory. As long as the absolute numbers are not stated on screen, no one can really have anything else. But my theory is based on what actually happens on Star Trek.

No, its based off what you want , lack of budget and bad plots.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

The original Connie doesn't have those either.

Yep, I accept this. Although you can see the tubes. But what they wanted was proof of unarmed or lightly armed. Notice they shifted and went for this ship and never tried to defend the other example.

A tiny fleet is simply unreasonable. We see a cruiser acting in a cruiser role. The poster does not even l know what a capital ship is. You can't defend the idea of a tiny fleet based off only seeing the one ship the budget allowed them to build and bad plots.

The only other ships we saw where the same class as it was cheap to buy and build.

 

[Tuskin38]

the tubes you can see.

No you can't.

 

[Longinus]

No, its based off what you want , lack of budget and bad plots.

OK, I think I'm done. It is pointless to discuss this if you're going to ignore what actually happens on the show.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Two round lights under the bridge deck.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

OK, I think I'm done. It is pointless to discuss this if you're going to ignore what actually happens on the show.

You have been done for a while to be honest. You shift the goal at lest three times and ignore common sense and basic logic. You also do not know what a capital ship is, what role a cruiser plays and have in interest in learning. You have this oddball fan theory that is counter to every other trek series and ignore everything that pokes holes in it and hold onto a plot device as the only proof you have.

 

[Tuskin38]

Two round lights under the bridge deck.

Those are not torpedo tubes.

 

[Tuskin38]

More images, I'll put them in spoiler tags as not to stretch the page

Spoiler: Ships

 

[Mirror Mirror]

More images, I'll put them in spoiler tags as not to stretch the page

Spoiler: Ships

What is that two more unknown ship classes?

 

[Tuskin38]

What is that two more unknown ship classes?

Looks like it!

Not counting the Europa or Shenzhou, looks like there are 5 unknown Federation ships in the images I've posted.