Sarpeidon technology vs. Iconian technology

[BobR]

Apologies if this has been beaten to death but a search didn't get me much. Maybe I'm just bad at searching.

Season 3 I think, "All Our Yesterdays": on Sarpeidon the "Atavachron" seemed to be some combination of a library of destinations in time, a device to alter your biology for the target time, and a portal to take you there... well, and back. Was the "Atavachron" itself perhaps maybe just the physiology altering device? I.e. is there any chance that the time portal was the same or used the same tech as the Iconian portals?

As far as I know the Atavachron wasn't intended to displace in space, just in time. Of course since planets are far from stationary in the universe that might actually be a moot point.

If this is a well-explored topic here does anyone have a link to the discussion to offer?

 

[Kor]

I don't remember the Iconian portals allowing time travel. I thought they were only for spacial travel at the present moment. But if the Iconian tech was supposed to be related to the Sarpeidon tech, then TPTB probably would have made some comment to that effect.

But to me, the Iconians don't belong in the canon of TOS anyway.

Kor

 

[Nerys Myk]

Atavachron is a time portal and only works on Sarpeidon. (Though I suppose if you moved to another world it would work there) So there's no space travel aspect. The "atava" part is from atavistic, meaning reversion. The "chron" part of the name is from chrono, which means time. So it means goes back in time.

 

[Maurice]

But, as the OP said, everything in space is moving. Planets rotate. By dint of that time travel IS space travel as portrayed by the Atavachron.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But, as the OP said, everything in space is moving. Planets rotate. By dint of that time travel IS space travel as portrayed by the Atavachron.

From what we saw of how the Atavachron worked, at each time the portal was located at a specific point in space. Maybe they could change where the portal would be at a particular time, but we never saw any indication that they could do that. The variable discussed was always when, and it was never where. Where was always implied by when. To locate Spock and McCoy they only needed to answer the question of when, e.g. "If we're to get the portal set for the proper time period, you must be specific." And Zarabeth knew exactly where the portal would be.

 

[BobR]

Here is another case: DS9, Season 6 I think, "Time's Orphan" where Molly O'Brien goes through a "portal" in a cave among ruins on some long-abandoned world. Could be Iconian, Sarpeidonian, or something else. These sure do all sound quite similar though.

The whole "atava" bit might be entirely separate from the time/space displacement. However the suggestion was that this process is required (subject to it possibly being a scam as discussed in a thread on Sarpeidon and "All Our Yesterdays").

I'm not saying it was all Iconian or whatever in origin, but perhaps all three exploited the same underlying technologies? Or maybe all 3 were Iconian and the Sarpeidonians found one and exploited it.

 

[BobR]

BTW: Isn't the current theory that Iconian portals could not just be hauled off to a new location and set up and operated there? I had the idea they were somehow rooted to the space in which they had been erected, exploiting some feature of the space there.

 

[BobR]

But to me, the Iconians don't belong in the canon of TOS anyway.

Wasn't the Guardian of Forever ("City on the Edge of Forever") Iconian technology, though at that stage the Federation wasn't aware of Iconia yet?

I admit I haven't done the research to lay all of these events on any sort of timeline. The DS9 portal was supposedly left over from a civilization extinct on that planet for 2000 years or so.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Wasn't the Guardian of Forever ("City on the Edge of Forever") Iconian technology, though at that stage the Federation wasn't aware of Iconia yet?

Please, God... no.....

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wasn't the Guardian of Forever ("City on the Edge of Forever") Iconian technology, though at that stage the Federation wasn't aware of Iconia yet?

Not in any episode or film I've seen.

 

[BobR]

Sorry, the last thing I want to suggest is that we bring Q into any of this.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sorry, the last thing I want to suggest is that we bring Q into any of this.

Q? What's his connection?

 

[BobR]

Uh oh... well at least one major Trek site said Q was deeply involved with the Guardian's past and destiny. Implication was that the Guardian was some sort of being rather than an AI as I had always presumed myself.

"Memory Beta" I think, so perhaps we can discard the notion and just breathe a sigh of relief?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Uh oh... well at least one major Trek site said Q was deeply involved with the Guardian's past and destiny. Implication was that the Guardian was some sort of being rather than just an AI as I had always presumed myself.

"Memory Beta" I think, so perhaps we can discard the notion and just breathe a sigh of relief?

Beta is devoted to TrekLit, so yeah it can be discarded. Memory Alpha is your better bet. The actual episodes and films are the best bet.

 

[Noname Given]

Wasn't the Guardian of Forever ("City on the Edge of Forever") Iconian technology, though at that stage the Federation wasn't aware of Iconia yet?

I admit I haven't done the research to lay all of these events on any sort of timeline. The DS9 portal was supposedly left over from a civilization extinct on that planet for 2000 years or so.

Absolutely not:
From TOS - "City on the Edge of Forever":

KIRK: Then what is it?

GUARDIAN: (The doughnut pulses bright in time with the words) A question. Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question.

KIRK: What are you?

GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever.

Let that sink in: "...Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question...."
^^^
The Guardian of Forever is BILLIONS of years old. It was around (had been created) LONG before even the Iconians existed.

 

[BobR]

Sure. I'll buy that.

But do we know that the Iconians actually originated "Iconian portal" technology?

 

[Timo]

Let's not forget that even though the Guardian states it has existed for a long time, it's actually brand new - after all, nobody has used it yet!

The definition of "yet" is the interesting bit here. The Guardian is surrounded by recent ruins (that is, mere tens of thousands of years old), and I find it difficult to believe that people appreciating classic Greek architecture wouldn't be asking questions (such as "How the hell did we end up here, and how do we get out, and should we build some temples while we're figuring it out?").

But the Guardian probably has even more difficulty with the concept of linear time than the Prophets...

Or are we to suppose its full line of dialogue should have gone "A question! Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question. In fact, I have been pestered with billions of those so far (and never given a straight answer, but that's beside the point), and I still keep on awaiting, because that's what I was built for - to repeatedly and courteously await till the end of time itself (and then to go back to the beginning for another round)!"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

The Guardian maybe be able to access all universes who are connected, even if temporarily to the Prime one.

 

[Timewalker]

Let's not forget that even though the Guardian states it has existed for a long time, it's actually brand new - after all, nobody has used it yet!

The definition of "yet" is the interesting bit here. The Guardian is surrounded by recent ruins (that is, mere tens of thousands of years old), and I find it difficult to believe that people appreciating classic Greek architecture wouldn't be asking questions (such as "How the hell did we end up here, and how do we get out, and should we build some temples while we're figuring it out?").

Back when this episode was written, what was the then-current estimate of the age of our solar system and the universe itself? Not that I think either Ellison or Roddenberry would have bothered reading astronomy or astrophysics journals, but one thing I've had to constantly remind myself when reading or watching decades-old SF is that it was based on what was known then, not now.

Therefore, I really shouldn't roll my eyes at all the references to intelligent indigenous species on planets that we know now likely couldn't happen because the star in question won't live long enough for its planets to produce any sort of intelligent life (if it has any planets; for example Vega doesn't, as far as we know, since it's a really young star and will supernova itself to smithereens in millions, not billions, of years).

So I've got a few ideas about this:

1. The episode writers weren't really considering the known age of our solar system, or they didn't know;

2. The Guardian was programmed by a poet;

3. Its builders weren't gone for billions of years; they were the people who left the Greek-looking ruins, but since they knew what the Guardian was, they didn't need to ask it questions;

4. Maybe the Guardian's builders never asked it a question, and just spoke to it or within its "hearing" in declarative sentences (giving it orders), and it was pleased to finally encounter a lifeform with some manners.


Of course this all begs the question of how the Guardian could still be intact after existing for billions of years. Unless it was able to stop time (and geological processes), it should have been either underwater or crushed during various geologic processes occurring over billions of years. After all, it only takes tens of thousands of years here to create a new mountain range or new ocean or inland sea.

The Guardian maybe be able to access all universes who are connected, even if temporarily to the Prime one.

A reasonable assumption, given the events of "Yesteryear"; history had been changed, and Spock had to go back in time to save himself from dying as a young boy. The interesting thing about this episode is that it was possible to specify an exact date for Spock's time trip ("the 20th of Tasmeen"). In "City" they had to make a lucky guesstimate and hope to arrive in the past before McCoy got there.

 

[Kor]

Spock actually said the ruins were "On the order of ten thousand centuries old."

That's a million years; of course, still nowhere near the age of our solar system. Radiometric dating in the 1920s and 1930s indicated that the solar system was at least a couple billion years old. And the numbers got more accurate in the next few decades after that.

Spock could have been making a very conservative estimate. It wouldn't be the only time he wasn't quite correct about something.

Kor