Is Tin Man Species 8472?

[Edynol]

Hello everybody. New to this forum but been watching Star Trek for around 20 years. I have recently been rewatching episodes of Voyager and TNG and just noticed this. Last week I watched the Scorpion episodes from Voyager and just now watched Tin Man. So what got me thinking was this one particular line, that Tin Man used to exist in the "Waste between space". Now at this point in time, obviously, the Federation hadn't discovered Fluidic Space. Like maybe the knew something existed outside our universe(or between universes) but they knew no more than that and called it "the waste".

Tin Man, Gomtuu, is a living being serving as a ship who served a telepathic crew. It has obviously superior technology and weapons and has been alone for a long time after its crew died having never gotten another crew until Tam Elbrun. Being that there are other telepathic species in the universe, it sure had other opportunities to find a new crew and not be alone, but never found a crew until Tam came. Now, from I have observed of Species 8472 is that their telepathic abilities exceed by far those of other races like Betazoids(from what we observed them doing to Kes on Voyager). So maybe he could communicate with them because they were not advanced enough in telepathy. But Tam was unique, he was a much more powerful empath than anyone else we had met. He was someone Tin Man could communicate with on that higher level.

Also taking into account its color and texture, it is very similar to the bio ships 8472 used. So what I am thinking is that it is one of their earlier ships, maybe one of their first designs(or shall I say an earlier parent species of the current lifeforms they used as vessels), that somehow left fluidic space and got stranded here in our universe. From what we discovered from future encounters with Species 8472, they are not inherently violent, they were just disturbed by the Borg and got ticked off. So perhaps Tin Man was their version of an exploration vessel, like the Enterprise.

Anyways, there are a lot of things that seem to point to it being part of Species 8472. I haven't really done much research yet, but from what I've seen, there is not much info on Tin Man than what I have learned from that episode. So what are your thoughts?

 

[The Wormhole]

No

 

[Edynol]

Extrapolate? Just saying "no" does absolutely nothing and adds nothing to the discussion. If you have proof to counter my theory, please share.

 

[The Wormhole]

The writer of Tin Man actually posts on this forum. I can assure you, Gomtuu has nothing to do with Species 8472. At all.

 

[Edynol]

Can you provide a link to another discussion then please? Also, the Star Trek franchise has had numerous writers. It is possible the writer for the Scorpion episodes got the idea for Species 8472 from the Tin Man episode. Also, writers don't really have any say in what is canon on future series and episodes unless they are also a part of that writing team.

 

[Mage]

Because Species 8472 wasn't even a thing back then. The writers didn't come up with them untill about 6 years later or so. So no, definatly NOT species 8472.

 

[The Wormhole]

It is possible the writer for the Scorpion episodes got the idea for Species 8472 from the Tin Man episode.

I very much doubt it. In the episode when Chakotay or Harry express surprise at the ship being biological, Tuvok mentions a list of several similar bio-ships in use by races in the Alpha Quadrant, and does not mention Gomtuu at all. If Tin Man was where Braga and Menosky got their idea, they would have mentioned so in that very scene, no?

 

[Timo]

^^So Spock in the early first season of TOS can't be a "Vulcan" working for the "Federation", because the writers back then hadn't come up with either term?

That's nonsense. The argument isn't about whether Tin Man was written to come from Fluidic Space, but about whether Tin Man came from Fluidic Space. (And possibly about whether the Fluidic Space was written partially influenced by Tin Man, but I agree with Wormhole here that this probably wasn't the case.)

Sure, Tin Man could come from the same place the 8472 came from. But Trek has more "hidden realms" than that one, so I'd probably opt for something that relates to Fluidic Space as much as the alien realm of "Schisms" relates to the realm of our TNG heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Edynol]

Well as shows and stories evolve, connections can be made. A lot of "foreshadowing" in both books and TV were not originally written to be foreshadowing but the writers/authors added on to them to make it seem so. I have done the same myself in some fan fics I wrote. Obviously, species 8472 hadn't even been conceived as of the writing of Tin Man, but it could have been added.

But all that aside, I'm not really talking about the real world behind the scenes of the making of Star Trek, I am talking within the confines of the Trek Universe itself and the possibility of the connection. Tin Man had to come from somewhere, the fluidic space is as likely as any.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Because Species 8472 wasn't even a thing back then. The writers didn't come up with them untill about 6 years later or so. So no, definatly NOT species 8472.

The Borg Retrofitted V'Ger.

Shit happens.

 

[Christopher]

Hello everybody. New to this forum but been watching Star Trek for around 20 years. I have recently been rewatching episodes of Voyager and TNG and just noticed this. Last week I watched the Scorpion episodes from Voyager and just now watched Tin Man. So what got me thinking was this one particular line, that Tin Man used to exist in the "Waste between space". Now at this point in time, obviously, the Federation hadn't discovered Fluidic Space. Like maybe the knew something existed outside our universe(or between universes) but they knew no more than that and called it "the waste".

The actual line was "the wastes between stars," i.e. the vast stretches of empty space between star systems. Most of the galaxy is empty space, and that could be called "the wastes" in the same sense that a vast area of unliveable desert between cities would be called a wasteland.

So what I am thinking is that it is one of their earlier ships, maybe one of their first designs(or shall I say an earlier parent species of the current lifeforms they used as vessels), that somehow left fluidic space and got stranded here in our universe. From what we discovered from future encounters with Species 8472, they are not inherently violent, they were just disturbed by the Borg and got ticked off. So perhaps Tin Man was their version of an exploration vessel, like the Enterprise.

Unlikely. 8472 come from a continuum where nothing exists except their kind of life -- which means their bioships must be extensions of themselves in some way. The way I see it is that fluidic space is essentially one vast collective organism with the 8472s, bioships, etc. as essentially different "cell" types within it. As a result, they're intensely xenophobic and see other forms of life as something to fear or destroy. The only life forms their bioships would be willing to bond with would be 8472s. Gomtuu was much more open to connecting with an alien than a creature from fluidic space could reasonably be expected to be.

Anyways, there are a lot of things that seem to point to it being part of Species 8472. I haven't really done much research yet, but from what I've seen, there is not much info on Tin Man than what I have learned from that episode. So what are your thoughts?

It's a big universe. Just because two things are both bio-organic ships, or both cybernetic, or both godlike beings that can alter reality with a snap of the fingers, or whatever, that doesn't prove they're related. It just proves it's a big universe and there are multiple examples of everything. Trying to reduce all similar things to a single shared origin is called "small-universe syndrome" because it makes what should be a huge and diverse universe feel far more small and simple than it should. I've seen countless fan theories trying to give two things a common origin just because they have a superficial resemblance, and I just don't see why that's desirable. It's creatively lazy and it makes the universe artificially tiny and incestuous. There are hundreds of billions of stars in the galaxy, trillions of galaxies in the universe, and possibly an infinite number of other universes. It's a given that any kind of thing would evolve separately more times than we could ever hope to count. So there's no valid reason at all to assume that two vaguely similar things must have a shared origin. It's far, far more likely that they don't.

 

[Mage]

The Borg Retrofitted V'Ger.

Shit happens.

Huh? That's still fan theory, not confirmed anywhere. Not even in TrekLit, I believe.

 

[Edynol]

^^So Spock in the early first season of TOS can't be a "Vulcan" working for the "Federation", because the writers back then hadn't come up with either term?

That's nonsense. The argument isn't about whether Tin Man was written to come from Fluidic Space, but about whether Tin Man came from Fluidic Space. (And possibly about whether the Fluidic Space was written partially influenced by Tin Man, but I agree with Wormhole here that this probably wasn't the case.)

Sure, Tin Man could come from the same place the 8472 came from. But Trek has more "hidden realms" than that one, so I'd probably opt for something that relates to Fluidic Space as much as the alien realm of "Schisms" relates to the realm of our TNG heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

This I agree with. And yeah, I was just the writers getting inspiration from Tin Man as an example. You are right, Tin Man could very likely have nothing to do with Species 8472. But there are a lot of similarities, are there not?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Huh? That's still fan theory, not confirmed anywhere. Not even in TrekLit, I believe.

Shatner wrote about it in "The Return".

Someone signed off on that as Novel canon.

 

[Mage]

Shatner wrote about it in "The Return".

Someone signed off on that as Novel canon.

Ah ok. Well, not sure if you follow TrekLit closely, but there's one line that is considered by most to be the TrekLit novelcanon, and that's the series of novels that begin with the A Time To series, detailing the year leading up to Nemesis. All the novels after Nemesis are (almost) all part of that continuum, sorta. The Shatner novels don't fall into that. However, non of the TrekLit novels are canon ofcourse.

 

[BillJ]

I don't understand this need to connect everything to everything else.

 

[Kor]

"The Return" is in the Shatnerverse, which is separate from the rest of the novels.

Kor

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

The Borg Retrofitted V'Ger.

Shit happens.

Wait... so that would make V'Ger a Trojan rabbit, yeah? Clever bastards.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ah ok. Well, not sure if you follow TrekLit closely, but there's one line that is considered by most to be the TrekLit novelcanon, and that's the series of novels that begin with the A Time To series, detailing the year leading up to Nemesis. All the novels after Nemesis are (almost) all part of that continuum, sorta. The Shatner novels don't fall into that. However, non of the TrekLit novels are canon ofcourse.

Of course.

I was giving a bad example of retroactive continuity.

Like how they knew about the augment virus from Enterprise when they redesigned the Klingons for The Motionless Picture.

 

[Edynol]

The actual line was "the wastes between stars," i.e. the vast stretches of empty space between star systems. Most of the galaxy is empty space, and that could be called "the wastes" in the same sense that a vast area of unliveable desert between cities would be called a wasteland.

Semantics, IMO. Stars and Space could be seen as interchangeable to some species. There are stars in universe A, stars in universe B, and Fluidic space exists "between the stars".

Unlikely. 8472 come from a continuum where nothing exists except their kind of life -- which means their bioships must be extensions of themselves in some way. The way I see it is that fluidic space is essentially one vast collective organism with the 8472s, bioships, etc. as essentially different "cell" types within it. As a result, they're intensely xenophobic and see other forms of life as something to fear or destroy. The only life forms their bioships would be willing to bond with would be 8472s. Gomtuu was much more open to connecting with an alien than a creature from fluidic space could reasonably be expected to be.

Say you're a living organism, all your family has died in an unknown area, and you are alone for a long time. It wouldn't be far fetched to long for companionship outside your race. As far as being xenophobic, I think "intensely" is a bit strong a word. In the episode "In the Flesh", they were extremely wary, but came to an understanding with Voyager and they explained why Species 8472 acted they way they did when the Borg invaded their space.

It's a big universe. Just because two things are both bio-organic ships, or both cybernetic, or both godlike beings that can alter reality with a snap of the fingers, or whatever, that doesn't prove they're related. It just proves it's a big universe and there are multiple examples of everything. Trying to reduce all similar things to a single shared origin is called "small-universe syndrome" because it makes what should be a huge and diverse universe feel far more small and simple than it should. I've seen countless fan theories trying to give two things a common origin just because they have a superficial resemblance, and I just don't see why that's desirable. It's creatively lazy and it makes the universe artificially tiny and incestuous. There are hundreds of billions of stars in the galaxy, trillions of galaxies in the universe, and possibly an infinite number of other universes. It's a given that any kind of thing would evolve separately more times than we could ever hope to count. So there's no valid reason at all to assume that two vaguely similar things must have a shared origin. It's far, far more likely that they don't.

Very true. I agree with this. But at the same time, it is not impossible for two things encountered separately to be from the same place and have the same origins. In this world of billions, people still, from time to time, meet people out and about they happen to be related to. See what I mean?