Cause and Effect - the Bozeman

[Mytran]

Theres nothing fun about a show that was made 25 years ago that was made in pretty plain english for most folks. MAYBE pre internet this was a large mystery for some.. Like area 51 or whatnot. But its simple. Georsi says it the bridge crew seem to get it. Why anyone else would get anything else from it.. Who knows. And yes there are better Things to do on first week of September in the year 2017.. Hopefully nobody looked DIRECTLY. At the eclpse but it was gorge.

Anyway. ITATE EVERYBODY!!

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You do realise that this is a Star Trek discussion board, right? As in, a place where we discuss (as in, talk about) Star Trek (as in, the episodes of the TV show).

Did you come here expecting something else?

In any case, the reason why the discussion about this 25 year old show (which you don't consider fun) is ongoing is that Laforge's PowerPoint presentation was a cursory summary of his theory about the current situation, as he understood it at the time. There's no way he could have had all the answers then, because he didn't even know about the Bozeman, let alone the full ramifications of there attempt to break the loop.

Most Star Trek episodes don't answer all the questions, because it's simply not necessary to the solution of a 45 minute story. That doesn't mean that those questions should remain unexplored however, since they affect how the wider Trek universe operates as a whole

I welcome your input.

 

[DonIago]

Not to mention that if this thread is so exasperating, the Unsubscribe button is over thataway....

 

[Dukhat]

We know the Bozeman blew up because otherwise there'd be severty plus years of Bozemans hanging around the 24th century.

Er, no. There was only one Bozeman. The time loop theory postulated that the ship appeared out of a spacial anomaly, hit the Enterprise, and the Enterprise blew up....then that scenario is erased and then repeats itself. My question was, what was the scenario like for the Bozeman before the Enterprise arrived? It still obviously appeared out of the spacial anomaly, but without the Enterprise there to hit, it must have just got to a point where time stopped and reversed back to the point where the Bozeman appeared.

However, what I think really happened was that the Bozeman only appeared during the time that the Enterprise was there. It came into the future just like how the Ent-C did, only this time it created a time loop at that precise moment, and was not stuck doing the same thing for 80 years. Which was why the Bozeman's crew seemed unaffected by the time loop - they were the ones who created it, and the effects were felt by the Enterprise crew instead.

Of course, this brings up an interesting scenario: If, in effect, this episode was really no different than "Yesterday's Enterprise," then the appearance of the Bozeman in the 24th century should have altered the timeline just like it did when the Ent-C came into the future. Unless the Bozeman and her crew were of such little significance in their time that any changes were minimal to nonexistent.

Some ppl on this thread . have issues thar are peering to the outside world and it is most certainly spam. Not interested on loony theories im talking about the elisode that was made. Not about what you want To b made of.

This is literally what we do here all the time, newbie. Minus yourself, we're all having a great discussion here. If you don't like it, you're welcome to take your dumb Simpsons Youtube videos and your crappy spelling and leave.

 

[DonIago]

I think it's pretty clear that we've been seeing a timeline where the B disappeared and nobody ever found out what happened until the E-D stumbled across them.

 

[Paradise City]

Alright the Bozeman does the Enterprise C thing. But this time it comes out and hits D.

D explodes, time loop resets...because..because...I know...it's a more localised version of when Janeway hits the timeship at the conclusion Year of Hell. Then everything resets. But...because you're dealing with a particular kind of anomaly everything is contained in a bubble like in Remember Me.

So there you go. I think my work here is done. Excuse me folks as I move onto the next thread...were people may need my incredible powers of deduction.

 

[Dukhat]

I think it's pretty clear that we've been seeing a timeline where the B disappeared and nobody ever found out what happened until the E-D stumbled across them.

Agreed. But if the Bozeman actually traveled through time instead of being caught in a time loop for 80 years, then it stands to reason that there was also a timeline where the Bozeman did not disappear, just like how when the Ent-C went back, the timeline readjusted itself. So, like "Yesterday's Enterprise," the timeline where the Bozeman did not disappear is in fact the "correct" timeline. But since everything looks pretty much the same by the end of the episode, the Bozeman and her crew were apparently completely insignificant, unlike the Ent-C and her crew.

 

[Mytran]

This just further emphasises the problem with Yesterday's Enterprise in that the Ent-C's jaunt to the future should not have affected the timeline one jot - for every of TNG from EOF onward, the disappearance/reappearance/destruction of the Ent-C is a part of their extant history. The fact that it reappears one day shouldn't be more than a curious footnote in history, the same as the Bozeman here.

The natural conclusion is that the majority of the events we witnessed in YE occured in a pre-existing parallel universe
and were not the result of a changed timeline at all. That may have not been the writer's original intention, but the impact of subsequent rewrites on the script lead us to this inescapable conclusion

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Some ppl on this thread . have issues thar are peering to the outside world and it is most certainly spam. Not interested on loony theories im talking about the elisode that was made. Not about what you want
To b made of

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I'll tell you what IS SPAM, its this post. One warning for Spamming given.

 

[Handsomeyoungensign]

ya great job your doing here bro @Mutai Sho-Rin clearly separating the non relevants.. such as the Tasha Yar thread....

 

[Dukhat]

This just further emphasises the problem with Yesterday's Enterprise in that the Ent-C's jaunt to the future should not have affected the timeline one jot - for every of TNG from EOF onward, the disappearance/reappearance/destruction of the Ent-C is a part of their extant history. The fact that it reappears one day shouldn't be more than a curious footnote in history, the same as the Bozeman here.

The only problem with this is that until "Yesterday's Enterprise," we knew absolutely nothing about the Enterprise-C, other than that it existed because there was a sculpture of it on the wall. Nor did we know the circumstances behind the eventual peace between the Federation and the Klingons. So any episode we saw before YE could have taken place in a timeline/universe where the Ent-C was just fine, and the peace with the Klingons happened by some other means.

Do I actually think this? No. I think that, again based on what we saw onscreen, that the specific spacial anomaly which brought the Ent-C into the future also caused the timeline to change. In the case of the Bozeman, its spacial anomaly either did not have the same effect, it did have the same effect but was so minimal as to be practically nonexistent, or it was just a time loop like what Picard/Geordi theorized and did not have any effect on the timeline.

ya great job your doing here bro @Mutai Sho-Rin clearly separating the non relevants.. such as the Tasha Yar thread....

LOL, way to piss off a moderator. I can see you're going to have quite a future here.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

LOL, way to piss off a moderator. I can see you're going to have quite a future here.

As a thoroughly adult male, it takes a lot more than juvenile foolishness to piss me off.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Agreed. But if the Bozeman actually traveled through time instead of being caught in a time loop for 80 years, then it stands to reason that there was also a timeline where the Bozeman did not disappear

I don't see any connection.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't see any connection.

I'm treating the Bozeman like the Ent-C.

There was a timeline where the Ent-C did not disappear, fought the Romulans and lost, but impressed the Klingons enough to make peace with the Federation, hence TNG. Then there was a timeline where the Ent-C did disappear, was not around to impress the Klingons, and the Klingons went to war with the Federation, hence war-TNG (YE).

So, if the situation was the same, then there was a timeline where the Bozeman did not disappear, and then there was a timeline where it did. However, the latter outcome did not apparently cause the major shift in events that the Ent-C did; it didn't seem to cause much of anything.

All this is, of course, based on my theory that the Bozeman traveled through time like the Ent-C did, and was not caught in a time loop. Get it?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There was a timeline where the Ent-C did not disappear, fought the Romulans and lost

Not necessarily. For all we know, the Enterprise-C was always supposed to travel into the future and then back again.

You can't prove otherwise, at any rate. We never see anyone check the historical database *before* YE takes place, do we?

 

[tharpdevenport]

However, in this instance we are dealing with an isolated "bubble" in the fabric of space/time that was literally "rewound" each time the loop was reset. There were afterimages to be sure (which is what the crew kept picking up on) but each time the loop happened their actions became the current and only version of history - until the next time, that is...

Yes, it turns out Time is a very worn-out VHS tape. It was un-kind but still the rewind. And It was recorded over each time, eventually leaving ghostly after effects.

At least time cant' be upgraded each year, from LaserDisc Time, to DVD Time, to Blu-ray Time, to download Time, etc,

 

[Dukhat]

Not necessarily. For all we know, the Enterprise-C was always supposed to travel into the future and then back again.

But that's not the point, because we clearly see an alternate universe spun off of the prime one in that instance, which then disappears when the Ent-C goes back. In the Bozeman's case, because they never went back, what we see after CaE is potentially a different timeline/universe from the point the Bozeman disappeared onward.

You can't prove otherwise, at any rate. We never see anyone check the historical database *before* YE takes place, do we?

That was what I implied when I said this:

The only problem with this is that until "Yesterday's Enterprise," we knew absolutely nothing about the Enterprise-C, other than that it existed because there was a sculpture of it on the wall. Nor did we know the circumstances behind the eventual peace between the Federation and the Klingons. So any episode we saw before YE could have taken place in a timeline/universe where the Ent-C was just fine, and the peace with the Klingons happened by some other means.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

we clearly see an alternate universe spun off of the prime one in that instance, which then disappears when the Ent-C goes back.

True, but my point is that in TNG's history prior to when YE takes place: this has already happened.

Meaning, all episodes - even the ones that aired before YE - take place in a timeline where the Enterprise-C has already travelled to the alternate 2344 and then came back.

As I said...you can't prove this didn't happen.

 

[Dukhat]

True, but my point is that in TNG's history prior to when YE takes place: this has already happened.

Meaning, all episodes - even the ones that aired before YE - take place in a timeline where the Enterprise-C has already travelled to the alternate 2344 and then came back.

And how can you prove that?

Let's take Sela, for instance. If the Ent-C was always supposed to go forward and then back in time, then she should exist during the first three seasons of TNG, and even before. Yet she never appears until after YE. Why?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I admit, I can't prove my position. But neither can you prove yours.

 

[Dukhat]

I'm not trying to "prove" anything. As I've already mentioned, it's just my theory about a fictional television show.