Putting aside WOK and all subsequent depictions of the Augments since "Space Seed", I was under the impression that Khan and company could have been "rehabilitated" to some degree, given that Khan's choice was either a penal colony or having sole dominion over an uncharted planet. Now, referring to "Dagger of the Mind" and "Whom Gods Destroy", do you think that the Augments could have been mainstreamed into Federation society, given that a typical Augment then was no stronger than a Vulcan? And if that was the case, fast forward along an parallel timeline, how would Federation society be depicted, if there were Augments living among normal humans? Bonus question: What would have happened if Ceti Alpha V did not become a hellish wasteland, thank to Cetil Alpha VI blowing up? Would Khan still seek revenge? Would he still have ambitions for conquest? Granted, this is all hypothetical, but I do not think that Augments are necessarily EEEEEVIL, simply because of them being Augments, given how the Klingons evolved and were accepted more than mustache twirling villains since TOS. Thoughts?
What if Khan and company was not sent to Ceti Alpha V?
- Thread starter dswynne1
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The danger of Khan and his group probably lay more in their desire for conquest than their physical strength, not to mention the subordinates' total obedience to Khan, so they were more dangerous than a group of 90-some Vulcans.
That aside, the idea that Kirk had the sole authority to decide how to deal with this existential threat without Starfleet's input, as well as the way Kirk allows Khan to study the technical manuals, are what stop this one from being a masterpiece.
Tangentially, I always wondered how one of the "Supermen" would compare in strength to a Vulcan. The only clue in Space Seed is that Spock's nerve pinch worked as usual on the goon posted by the decompression chamber.
That aside, the idea that Kirk had the sole authority to decide how to deal with this existential threat without Starfleet's input, as well as the way Kirk allows Khan to study the technical manuals, are what stop this one from being a masterpiece.
Tangentially, I always wondered how one of the "Supermen" would compare in strength to a Vulcan. The only clue in Space Seed is that Spock's nerve pinch worked as usual on the goon posted by the decompression chamber.
Aug...ments? What are those and do they have something to do with the eugenically enhanced Khan? 
Not very TOSian, is it?Aug...ments? What are those and do they have something to do with the eugenically enhanced Khan?
The heroes surmised that the world was not ready to learn about the survival of a bunch of the Augmen. But if the Superments were sent to a standard penal colony like Tantalus, could they be "whitewashed" into not being recognized for what they were?
Dr. Adams presented Lethe as an acceptable result of his therapies. Making Khan stop being Khan might well require a similar level of futuristic lobotomizing, rather than the supposedly benign treatments that worked on Mudd, Yates and the like in selectively stopping them from persisting with specific criminal acts. But would another Lethe be acceptable? Dr. Noel had apparently never seen a case like that in any other penal colony working on the Adams model, but OTOH she did accept Adams' word for this sometimes being necessary and tolerable.
As for Khan's face, well, Kirk never recognized it. And faces can come and go in the Trek universe - in a parallel one, Khan's apparently went.
In any case, Adams-style cures apparently work on criminals who don't consider themselves eeeeevil - they can stop Yates from ever repeating the horrid crime of smuggling medicine to those in need, or Paris from ever rejoining the Maquis, without yet making mental wrecks of the patients. So stopping Khan from thinking of himself as a Prince of Zillions might well work.
As for that other scenario, I doubt Khan ever felt happy about settling a new world. He wanted to rule Earth and mankind - the idea that he should colonize some empty rock out in deep space is just our heroes' interpretation of why Khan was fleeing in a (barely) interstellar spacecraft, when what actually transpired was that Khan practiced classic piracy with that craft.
Were Khan to ever come across with the means to escape Ceti Alpha V, I trust he would, and I trust he would also wreak vengeance on Kirk without first having to go mad on a desert world that kills his loved ones and followers. And then he'd continue with his plan to rule all mankind. And possibly alienkind, too - any racist/purgist motivations assigned to him by Admiral Marcus are clearly sham, as he's a supremacist instead, desperately needing lower people to rule over.
Timo Saloniemi
Dr. Adams presented Lethe as an acceptable result of his therapies. Making Khan stop being Khan might well require a similar level of futuristic lobotomizing, rather than the supposedly benign treatments that worked on Mudd, Yates and the like in selectively stopping them from persisting with specific criminal acts. But would another Lethe be acceptable? Dr. Noel had apparently never seen a case like that in any other penal colony working on the Adams model, but OTOH she did accept Adams' word for this sometimes being necessary and tolerable.
As for Khan's face, well, Kirk never recognized it. And faces can come and go in the Trek universe - in a parallel one, Khan's apparently went.
In any case, Adams-style cures apparently work on criminals who don't consider themselves eeeeevil - they can stop Yates from ever repeating the horrid crime of smuggling medicine to those in need, or Paris from ever rejoining the Maquis, without yet making mental wrecks of the patients. So stopping Khan from thinking of himself as a Prince of Zillions might well work.
As for that other scenario, I doubt Khan ever felt happy about settling a new world. He wanted to rule Earth and mankind - the idea that he should colonize some empty rock out in deep space is just our heroes' interpretation of why Khan was fleeing in a (barely) interstellar spacecraft, when what actually transpired was that Khan practiced classic piracy with that craft.
Were Khan to ever come across with the means to escape Ceti Alpha V, I trust he would, and I trust he would also wreak vengeance on Kirk without first having to go mad on a desert world that kills his loved ones and followers. And then he'd continue with his plan to rule all mankind. And possibly alienkind, too - any racist/purgist motivations assigned to him by Admiral Marcus are clearly sham, as he's a supremacist instead, desperately needing lower people to rule over.
Timo Saloniemi
No idea what an Augment is. Is it related to 20th Century eugenically enhanced humans or something different? Is this some kind of Enterprise series retcon?
In any event, I don't get the sense at all that Khan would want to be rehabilitated in any way. He would still be interested in conquest. Given the choice of going to prison or colonizing a planet, it's a no brainer what he would choose. I do think it would appeal to his ego to be the "father" of a new civilization. However, if he found some way to get off the planet, I think he would take that opportunity in a heartbeat.
If Ceti Alpha V had not become what it was and remained a viable planet for life, then I don't think revenge ever comes into play.
In any event, I don't get the sense at all that Khan would want to be rehabilitated in any way. He would still be interested in conquest. Given the choice of going to prison or colonizing a planet, it's a no brainer what he would choose. I do think it would appeal to his ego to be the "father" of a new civilization. However, if he found some way to get off the planet, I think he would take that opportunity in a heartbeat.
If Ceti Alpha V had not become what it was and remained a viable planet for life, then I don't think revenge ever comes into play.
Yup. There were at least three episodes showing the Augments and giving them that name. They're actually entertaining and among Enterprise's best episodes easily. If they derailed TOS canon too much, I don't recall it.
Thanks. At some point, I'll watch Enterprise in its entirety. I just [sarcastic] love [/sarcastic] how they have to give spiffy names these days to label everything.
Khan himself was redefined as "genetically engineered" back in ST2:The Wrath of You-Know-Who already. Doesn't mean anything much - eugenics is genetic engineering, although genetic engineering today isn't limited to eugenics.
So far, we have learned of no selective breeding program existing as such, not in the Trek 20th century or before. It appears Khan emerged out of thin air, not out of umpteen generations of almost-supermen. And for all we know, he emerged fairly shortly before his big coup, aging faster than normal humans, as his children in ST2:TWoK seem to reach full adulthood within fifteen years or so. All this may better fit the ENT take of things than any 1960s-style interpretation of the "Space Seed" dialogue.
Spock in "Space Seed" associates the 1990s Eugenics War(s) with an "attempt" to better mankind with selective breeding. Perhaps a program was launched at that date, instead of completed? Perhaps it was launched by engineering superior creatures and then trying to stop the non-superior ones from breeding? The first part obviously worked, while the second may be what was left at the "attempt" stage.
Or then there was secretive selective breeding for several generations, and we just haven't heard much of it. Perhaps Spock feels the World Wars aka the Eugenics Wars were all about racial purging, and Khan and his ilk are just part of that continuum, either because the Nazis or whoever kept on breeding supermen in some secret Himalayan cave, or because Spock sees no reason to differentiate between the 1980s lab project to create Khan in a petri dish and the global experiment with killing the inferior around the 1930s-40s.
The bottom line is that there's no bottom line yet - the full story remains to be written. Or, more accurately, filmed, as there are novels that do spell it all out.
Timo Saloniemi
So far, we have learned of no selective breeding program existing as such, not in the Trek 20th century or before. It appears Khan emerged out of thin air, not out of umpteen generations of almost-supermen. And for all we know, he emerged fairly shortly before his big coup, aging faster than normal humans, as his children in ST2:TWoK seem to reach full adulthood within fifteen years or so. All this may better fit the ENT take of things than any 1960s-style interpretation of the "Space Seed" dialogue.
Spock in "Space Seed" associates the 1990s Eugenics War(s) with an "attempt" to better mankind with selective breeding. Perhaps a program was launched at that date, instead of completed? Perhaps it was launched by engineering superior creatures and then trying to stop the non-superior ones from breeding? The first part obviously worked, while the second may be what was left at the "attempt" stage.
Or then there was secretive selective breeding for several generations, and we just haven't heard much of it. Perhaps Spock feels the World Wars aka the Eugenics Wars were all about racial purging, and Khan and his ilk are just part of that continuum, either because the Nazis or whoever kept on breeding supermen in some secret Himalayan cave, or because Spock sees no reason to differentiate between the 1980s lab project to create Khan in a petri dish and the global experiment with killing the inferior around the 1930s-40s.
The bottom line is that there's no bottom line yet - the full story remains to be written. Or, more accurately, filmed, as there are novels that do spell it all out.
Timo Saloniemi
Thanks. At some point, I'll watch Enterprise in its entirety. I just [sarcastic] love [/sarcastic] how they have to give spiffy names these days to label everything.
Yeah, I haven't seen all of Enterprise (or anything close to it) either. I did happen to catch the Augments episodes, which I believe were in a trilogy or three-episode arc. I'm not sure why they thought a new name was needed and agree with you that it probably wasn't!
Spock beats the piss out of Khan, with Uhura's help in Star Trek Into Darkness. One of the funniest things about "Space Seed" was Kirk beating up Khan with a piece of PVC.
I never had an issue with Kirk stranding Khan, and I have no doubt Starfleet knew about it as the events are in Kirk's logs and he has to account for a missing crewperson.
As far as Khan escaping, it would be doubtful unless someone did no study on entering the system and couldn't identify planets with life signs. He would've had zero infrastructure, nor the manpower to create a space vehicle.
That 23rd century PVC is tough shit!
I don't see how there's any prison that could hold Khan and his ilk. They would always try to escape. It's in their nature. And, given their genetically enhanced strength and intellect, they'd succeed.
That's why Ceti Alpha was the best place to put them. You can't escape a planet like that if there's nothing to escape WITH. Only the Reliant stumbling across the planet screwed things up (and Starfleet not placing a dozen warning beacons in orbit ).
That's why Ceti Alpha was the best place to put them. You can't escape a planet like that if there's nothing to escape WITH. Only the Reliant stumbling across the planet screwed things up (and Starfleet not placing a dozen warning beacons in orbit
).
^ True dat.
Although it doesn't explain the sheer idiocy of the Reliant's crew not immediately noticing that there's one fewer planet in the system than there should be (and mistaking one planet for another).
Although it doesn't explain the sheer idiocy of the Reliant's crew not immediately noticing that there's one fewer planet in the system than there should be (and mistaking one planet for another).
Yeah, that's odd. Even back in the Doomsday Machine, the Enterprise is able to detect planets that aren't there anymore and certainly there were charts of the explored solar system. I guess the little detail of Ceti Alpha VI having done blown up was due to it falling in a plot hole.
The only other thing I can think of is that the Ceti Alpha System was never properly mapped in the 23rd Century (but that's a stretch)
Maybe a stretch, yeah, because you'd think that the Enterprise, after dropping Khan & Co. off, would have taken some basic sensor scans of the system. Another stretch is why it wasn't called Alpha Ceti. The Enterprise even visited the Omicron Ceti (Mira) system in This Side of Paradise, and referred to it as Omicron Ceti.
I did some more checking. According to various (admittedly non-canon) other sources, like the original script and the novelization, we learn these things:
- Ceti Alpha V and VI are a twin-planet system, are of the same size, and orbit each other.
- All data on this system were deliberately erased from the navigational charts so as to make it just that much harder for Khan to free himself.