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What if Khan and company was not sent to Ceti Alpha V?

Mr. Laser Beam said:
I don't see how there's any prison that could hold Khan and his ilk. They would always try to escape. It's in their nature. And, given their genetically enhanced strength and intellect, they'd succeed.

That's why Ceti Alpha was the best place to put them. You can't escape a planet like that if there's nothing to escape WITH. Only the Reliant stumbling across the planet screwed things up (and Starfleet not placing a dozen warning beacons in orbit :lol: ).
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You don't think Khan and company could have essentially re-invent technology, with their superior intellect? I would imagine that with their knowledge, they could have found and processed the raw materials to come up with a workable space craft, find yet another ship in space (or, at the very least, create a beacon to get someone's attention), get rescued, return to collect their people, and then proceed to do whatever? I mean, from the time of the Eugenics War to the launch of the Phoenix for its first warp test, we're talking about a seventy year difference...
 
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Kor said:
But what if they built all the technology themselves from the ground up?

Kor
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That would be decades of work.
We see this in the The Long Earth book series. Even with zeppelins as transdimensional carrier you can't easily mass-produce an infrastructure without starting with 19thC tech first (mining, metalworking, smithy).
 
Mr. Laser Beam said:
- All data on this system were deliberately erased from the navigational charts so as to make it just that much harder for Khan to free himself.
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I don't know how Starfleet erasing their own starcharts somehow keeps Khan from escaping?
 
Mr. Laser Beam said:
Perhaps Starfleet thought that a Khan sympathizer would access the records, learn Khan was marooned there, and send a ship to get him.
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That's a pretty far stretch considering four hundred Enterprise crew members all knew what happened and where Khan was ditched.

Maybe they erased everything? Maps, log entries. But you still have the human factor.
 
Interesting about erasing the planet from charts. Did they erase Chekov's memory as well, so he didn’t consider that bringing knowledge of a dangerously weaponizable new technology into that particular system was a bad idea? Like BillJ, I just really don't get this.

But evidently we're supposed to assume that Kirk consulted with Starfleet before deciding to exile those guys, and where? I may well have read the ending of SS wrong for 40+ years. I thought we were supposed to think that Kirk made that call on his own pursuant to the more Horatio Hornblower-esque vibe of S1.
 
I think Khan and co would have been sent to some sort of penal colony, escaped, caused more problems for the Federation, destroying property, people and ships. Eventually they would have been recaptured or killed.
I think there is a slight chance that they could be 'reformed' -if they could find a planet were the population was keen on finding a charismatic leader like Khan.I think Khan could live in harmony with the Federation if he got the power he wanted.
 
After a few sessions in the Neural Neutralizer at Elba II, he'd probably be quite satisfied with absolutely bossing over his surviving crewmates and organizing them by height, color and smell into truly spectacular ballet performances.

I'd think stranding Khan and then advertising his presence with warning beacons would be the definition of self-defeating. Khan got back from the dead because of a beacon - that's what allowed him to hijack Kirk's ship.

Remember that "Space Seed" begins with Kirk saying they're Where No Man Will Go Again, because this part of space has been done already. Unless the subsequent adventure somehow takes them out of that part of space, then the odds of Khan being found are pretty much zero. And indeed even Starfleet's Secret Projects Branch thinks it's a great idea to test Genesis in the neighborhood a few decades later. (Which incidentally shows that Kirk didn't tell Starfleet. Or at least didn't tell the Secret Projects Branch.)

...I really don't see the problem with Kirk lying about Khan. There's plenty of precedent to him lying about the real cause of death or disappearance of his personnel, and of him having extreme leeway with how he uses starship time and resources. He has the explicit means to forge his logs, as per "Court Martial", and in any case he apparently dictates those after the adventure is over. The show of "hearing" for the vain Khan just cinches that even McCoy feels he has the authority to whitewash anything and everything - the "recordings" would just show that nothing ever happened.

In general, Starfleet is the sole UFP law enforcement authority referred to in Star Trek. And Starfleet Captains appear to have the powers of Justice of Peace, at least when it comes to the marriage-at-sea cliche. What with all the deep space communications problems and the general gist of the final frontier, Kirk dishing out frontier justice simply feels right.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo said:
Or then there was secretive selective breeding for several generations, and we just haven't heard much of it.
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I'm sure that was the original intent.
Mr. Laser Beam said:
I don't see how there's any prison that could hold Khan and his ilk. They would always try to escape. It's in their nature. And, given their genetically enhanced strength and intellect, they'd succeed.

That's why Ceti Alpha was the best place to put them. You can't escape a planet like that if there's nothing to escape WITH. Only the Reliant stumbling across the planet screwed things up (and Starfleet not placing a dozen warning beacons in orbit :lol: ).
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^^ This.
DonIago said:
The warning beacons may have been destroyed in the course of whatever caused Ceti Alpha VI to explode.
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Mr. Laser Beam said:
Although it doesn't explain the sheer idiocy of the Reliant's crew not immediately noticing that there's one fewer planet in the system than there should be (and mistaking one planet for another).
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My theory there is that even though Ceti Alpha VI exploded, the debris didn't reach escape velocity and was still drawn back to the planetary core, forming a loose field of planetary chunks and atmosphere that might've looked like a full planet at first glance. If the Reliant had done a thorough scan of the planetary body, they would've realized what was up, of course.
Mr. Laser Beam said:
I did some more checking. According to various (admittedly non-canon) other sources, like the original script and the novelization, we learn these things:

- Ceti Alpha V and VI are a twin-planet system, are of the same size, and orbit each other.

- All data on this system were deliberately erased from the navigational charts so as to make it just that much harder for Khan to free himself.
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Interesting!
 
On the issue of the planetary mixup, there's no precedent to our heroes idly scanning planetary systems for the presence or absence of planets. Indeed, "Doomsday Machine" nicely shows how much effort such a thing takes: Sulu is "within the limits" of the star system L-370 before he notices that all the planets there are now gone. And that's a system that Sulu is revisiting after having himself participated in charting it less than a year ago.

When approaching Earth, Chekov would be extremely unlikely to check whether Pluto, Mercury or Mars still existed. Indeed, as far as we know, he has never done such a thing. When approaching the jungle planet in System X-123, he would likewise be extremely unlikely to check whether the local ice planets and rock planets and gas giants were in place, or off by a smidgen, or taking a vacation altogether. Consequently, if his sensors showed a jungle planet, there'd be no way for him to tell whether that's X-123-IV or X-123-VI, and he'd be utterly disinterested in knowing.

And if X-123-Jungle itself were a few million kilometers from where it "should" be, Chekov would just make a trivial course correction. After all, "should" is neither here nor there as regards "is".

Getting back to the thread topic, it's an interesting issue, but rather unrelated to the above, that Chekov doesn't appear to realize at first that Ceti Alpha equals Khan. The three interpretations are clear, choosing between them less so:

1) Chekov doesn't remember that Ceti Alpha is where they marooned Khan.

2) Chekov doesn't know that Ceti Alpha is where they marooned Khan.

3) Chekov thinks that being on Ceti Alpha VI is sufficient reason not to worry about Khan, who is stuck on Ceti Alpha V and probably dead anyway.

It's easy to plead #1 because our heroes get around - Khan is just a forgettable adventure among hundreds, and his place of exile a mere name and a number among tens of thousands. But then we have to consider why Chekov hasn't refreshed his memory on the topic of the star system they are approaching. And there we have to decide whether Khan has been omitted/erased from records, or whether Chekov simply doesn't give a damn about records. The former is IMHO likelier, because Chekov was raised by Spock who always gives the obligatory exposition about the target planet at this stage of an adventure.

It's not difficult to plead #2, either. We didn't see Chekov in "Space Seed". He was probably aboard because Khan claims to remember his face and even correctly associates it with his name; stardates would have us believe he came aboard for "Catspaw" at the very latest, 130 SDs (probably a month and a half) before Khan. But he wasn't the navigator on duty when Khan's ship was found, and it's possible he wasn't the navigator on duty when Khan was marooned, either. And Kirk never tells his crew where the ship is going or what she's doing.

Dramatically, #3 is the least satisfactory - Chekov's surprise appears far too complete, his dawning recognition of the name Botany Bay at odds with the idea that he would rapidly shift mental gears from "Khan is over there" to "Eek, Khan is here!".

Timo Saloniemi
 
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I guess the only alternative to outright execution (or some futuro-variant such as mindwiping) would be to lock Khan in virtual reality. I wonder what the Talosians could do with him?

Then again, mankind could let Khan rule. He may be bad, but our heroes agree there have been worse, and they indeed face worse in their own era, too. And he's not immortal, although he may be a bit too long-lived to comfortably be elected "tyrant for life"...

The big question is, while Khan apparently likes his 72 kinsmen and -women well enough, at least when it suits his attempts at dominating the universe, would he want to create further supermen? Or would he rather aim at preventing any such competition from ever arising again? A dynasty is a bit unlikely if he has to keep on preemptively killing his sons and daughters in order to survive.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If the Myriad Universe story is any indication, Khan found normal humans too normal to keep around as anything other than a servant class in the long run, and augmentation became the de facto standard.
 
BillJ said:
That's a pretty far stretch considering four hundred Enterprise crew members all knew what happened and where Khan was ditched.

Maybe they erased everything? Maps, log entries. But you still have the human factor.
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Why should anyone except the people we know met Khan have any idea what happened and where Khan ended up? And in fact, most of them wouldn't have been told (ie. the yeoman setting the table at the formal dinner or the miscellaneous other crew who only saw Khan briefly).

It's not like Kirk would have broadcast his log entries to everyone as part of any "Good Morning Enterprise" briefings.

Most of the crew probably never even saw Khan, and wouldn't have been told what happened to him.

Timo said:
Getting back to the thread topic, it's an interesting issue, but rather unrelated to the above, that Chekov doesn't appear to realize at first that Ceti Alpha equals Khan. The three interpretations are clear, choosing between them less so:

1) Chekov doesn't remember that Ceti Alpha is where they marooned Khan.

2) Chekov doesn't know that Ceti Alpha is where they marooned Khan.

3) Chekov thinks that being on Ceti Alpha VI is sufficient reason not to worry about Khan, who is stuck on Ceti Alpha V and probably dead anyway.

It's easy to plead #1 because our heroes get around - Khan is just a forgettable adventure among hundreds, and his place of exile a mere name and a number among tens of thousands. But then we have to consider why Chekov hasn't refreshed his memory on the topic of the star system they are approaching. And there we have to decide whether Khan has been omitted/erased from records, or whether Chekov simply doesn't give a damn about records. The former is IMHO likelier, because Chekov was raised by Spock who always gives the obligatory exposition about the target planet at this stage of an adventure.

It's not difficult to plead #2, either. We didn't see Chekov in "Space Seed". He was probably aboard because Khan claims to remember his face and even correctly associates it with his name; stardates would have us believe he came aboard for "Catspaw" at the very latest, 130 SDs (probably a month and a half) before Khan. But he wasn't the navigator on duty when Khan's ship was found, and it's possible he wasn't the navigator on duty when Khan was marooned, either. And Kirk never tells his crew where the ship is going or what she's doing.

Dramatically, #3 is the least satisfactory - Chekov's surprise appears far too complete, his dawning recognition of the name Botany Bay at odds with the idea that he would rapidly shift mental gears from "Khan is over there" to "Eek, Khan is here!".

Timo Saloniemi
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First: Chekov was "raised" by Spock? Whut? :vulcan:

Mentored? Yes. Taught? Definitely. But raised? I kinda doubt that. Chekov has family in Russia, on Earth.


Second: Of the three possibilities mentioned above, I don't see a problem with combining them.

As a very junior ensign, Chekov wasn't a Bridge officer at the time of "Space Seed." It's been speculated that he might have among the Engineering crew (offscreen), so that's how Khan would know his face. Or maybe Khan just decided to review the crew roster, along with the technical manuals when he was recuperating in Sickbay.

As a very junior officer, Chekov wouldn't have been told what happened to Khan. Why would he? When dealing with issues dangerous enough to merit being classified or hushed up otherwise, the last thing Kirk would have done would have been to let all 432 people on the crew know what happened to Khan and where he and his followers were marooned. Chekov wasn't told at the time because he didn't have the clearance to know, and he didn't have the need to know.

All that said, many years later Chekov worked his way up the ranks to the First Officer's job on the Reliant. That puts him within one step of the Captaincy, and at some point he could have been told about Khan, or found out somehow. The confusion over Ceti Alpha V and VI is logical if they're twin planets (or were), and thus Chekov's reaction could very well indicate that his memory of Khan (whatever he might have witnessed, been told, or found out later) was triggered by the words "Botany Bay" and the sudden realization that "THIS is where they ended up? Ohdamnwe'resoscrewed!" becomes entirely reasonable.
 
I love TWOK; it's by far my most favorite Trek movie and my second-favorite movie of all time.

But I'm having trouble with two or three ideas here.

First, the Reliant crew was engaged in a detailed and highly classified (Spock knew nothing of it until Kirk told him and Kirk had to provide a retinal scan to gain access to the project summary) suitability study for the Genesis Project. I cannot swallow the idea that they failed to scan the system when entering it. And it seems highly likely that the computers would provide the necessary information, automatically, to show an anomaly as great as a missing planet.

Then, of course, there's the fact that the entire system should have been red-flagged somehow as the home-in-exile of one of the most dangerous people in the galaxy. Starfleet should probably have quarantined the system entirely, but certainly never should have sent a ship there on a top-secret mission involving weaponizable technology of such power.

As for Chekov and the Enterprise crew not remembering Khan or knowing where he was left, doesn't Chekov argue with Khan and tell him that "On Ceti Alpha V there was life"? That makes it sound like Chekov was pretty well-informed as to Khan's location and even its ability to be colonized. And while I grant you that by the end of S3, the Enterprise had been invaded/seized about 10-15 times, perhaps clouding a few memories (Enterprise crew reunion discussion: "now, wait, was that the invisible bunch who wanted to deep-freeze us, or the jumpsuited goons who converted us all into blocks, or . . . "), I imagine most of them remembered the time the ship was captured by a legendary Earth tyrant of old with the aid of a crew member, the bridge crew was nearly suffocated, and everyone except Kirk, Spock and the awesome punch-throwing Scotty were gassed into unconsciousness in order to repel the invaders and retake the ship.

I really want to find some head canon to straighten this out. Anyone? I'm not sure I'm fully grasping the background about the twin planets or the warning beacons.

As for the original thread topic, it's a really tricky question. Elba II or Tantalus V or the like might have been better solutions in some ways. I don't recall any dialogue in TWOK debating that, although TOS clearly had an interest in criminal rehabilitation, but the movie was so awesome anyway.
 
The warning beacon one is easy enough...any disaster significant enough to cause a planet to explode (Khan's observation, who knows what really happened?) could easily have wiped out any beacons at the same time.
 
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