Discovery prequel novel: Desperate Hours
- Thread starter WebLurker
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Also in some ENT novels, there's a new character introduced as night shift captain of the NX-01. I think her name was O'Donnell or something like that.
It was a 60's TV show, aimed at American audiences. What exactly did you want from them?
The phrase "United Space Ship Enterprise" was used in the very first pilot. It's clearly meant to sound like "United States Ship," but with the bare minimum effort made to futurize it. (And Pike says it to an illusory member of the "American Continent Institute," while we're at it.) If the goal had been to specify an Earth service, it could've been "United Earth Ship" (UES), or "Planetary Alliance Ship" (PAS), or "Earth Republic Exploration Ship" (ERES) or any number of things. International ship prefixes take countless different forms, and only the United States uses "USS" (along with several others). So it's not like Roddenberry was forced to use that prefix. He was a WWII veteran and had been around the world, so he was most likely familiar with other nations' military and naval conventions. He chose "USS" because he wanted it to sound American. Which, yes, is understandable at the time, from the perspective of an American TV producer, but it's kind of arbitrary from an in-universe perspective.
I'm for "Federation Earth Ship" (FES), but other Federation planets that begin with "E" would need to use something else...
...but I think the Dohlman of Elas would be very pissed off and have a tantrum if she couldn't use FES for "Federation Elasian Ship". Even if Elas didn't have any ships out there doing exploration, science, peacekeeping, etc for the Federation, I think she would still be pissed off out of principle.
I was responding to the comment about the creators' original intentions back in 1964, when they were assuming that the Enterprise was exclusively an Earth ship and the concept of the Federation hadn't been invented yet. WebLurker seemed to be saying that "USS" was meant to suggest an Earth ship, which makes no sense to me, because "United Space Ship" doesn't mention Earth. So I was suggesting some alternatives that they might've come up with if they had specifically intended to suggest an Earth ship rather than just lazily reusing the American convention.
From an in-universe perspective, the prefix that would make the most sense for a Federation ship would probably be UFS or UFSS, for United Federation Starship. Or maybe FSS for Federation Starfleet Ship (since non-Starfleet ships would need their own prefixes).
Even taking that into account, it odd that a ship representing Earth as a united planet would use the American USS prefix in its name.
Thing is, we never see any influence from other races in Starfleet. Everything we see with Starfleet originated, and even then is largely of American origin. Even the orders to Captains to take command of ships is worded in the traditional manner of Earth navies ("you are requested and required..."). Add to that Starfleet so closely mirrors the US Navy to the point that like the USN Starfleet eventually dissolved the rank Commodore (it's still used in other modern navies) and if you accept behind the scenes material like the Encyclopedia, replaced it with the American exclusive rank Rear Admiral, Lower Half. We even have everyone pronouncing words and letters the American way (Lieutenant is Loo-tenant instead of Leftenant, Z is Zee instead of Zed). Even most ship names are American in origin, though admitted quite a few British ship names are used too. We haven't seen an alien influence on Starfleet, indeed we don't have much indication of any influence of anyone else on Earth besides the US. Starfleet Command is even in San Francisco!
Donna O'Neill who was never addressed as "Captain" until later novels when she actually was promoted to Captain.
Okay.
Fair enough.
I think there was a joke about the heavy American influence in ENT. At any rate, since Starfleet was originally a human-made agency, it would make some sense that it would continue to have that influence down the line.
According to Memory Alpha, "commodore" was still a rank during TNG, with it being used somehow in "Conspiracy" (TNG) and mentioned in "The Enemy" (TNG). (It's also still in use in a few modern Star Trek projects, like Star Trek Beyond.)
I don't understand that reference.
Well, there was the Surak, a Vulcan-designed ship that may or may not have been in Starfleet service (Star Trek I); the Gorkon, named after the Klingon chancellor in Star Trek VI ("Descent," Part I" [TNG]); the Sarek, named after the Vulcan ambassador from various TOS and TNG projects ("Favor the Bold" [DS9]), and the T'Kumbra, a presumably Vulcan-named ship (Take Me Out to the Holosuite" [DS9]).
Well, as mentioned before, Starfleet was originally a human organization. Make of that what you will.
Most English speakers worldwide pronounce the letter Z as "zed" (derived from the Greek zeta by way of French). Only Americans pronounce it "zee."
Stipulated.
We can, however, explain every non-USN practice we see in Starfleet as a result of alien influence.
Also, the Rise of the Federation novels explain how much of what we know about Starfleet stems from Andorian an Vulcan practices, e.g. bridge consoles facing the captain (Kumari) rather than its occupants (NX-01).
We can, however, explain every non-USN practice we see in Starfleet as a result of alien influence.
Also, the Rise of the Federation novels explain how much of what we know about Starfleet stems from Andorian an Vulcan practices, e.g. bridge consoles facing the captain (Kumari) rather than its occupants (NX-01).
Well Christopher above you wrote those, so there is that.
Did not know that. Interesting.
I meant in Star Trek.
I'm going to need a specific example for Conspiracy, I just reviewed a transcript and Commodore was definitely not said in dialogue. As for The Enemy, all that proves is that Geordi had heard of the rank, not that Starfleet was still using it. Indeed, given he seemed so insistent to call his Romulan friend "Commodore" we could infer an implication that it was meant to be a Romulan rank in the episode.
I think he was just calling him commodore to annoy him.
Commodore wasn't said audibly in Cospiracy, it was on a computer screen
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Toki
Commodore wasn't said audibly in Cospiracy, it was on a computer screen
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Toki
Obviously, but that's not the relevant level of analysis here. The point is, the reason it's U.S.S. in Star Trek, regardless of the in-universe excuse for that acronym, was because Roddenberry was basing it on the United States Navy. And that creative choice to base what's supposed to be an interstellar (or at least global) organization on something exclusively American in origin is exactly the thing we're complaining about, because it's ethnocentric.
That's a fair point, although I think it's a little bit like complaining how in the Doctor Who universe, when Earth is visited or invaded by the Doctor or other aliens, a disproportionate of them happen in London, Cardiff, Bannerman Road, or other places in England. At the end of the day, Doctor Who is a British franchise and will be written first and foremost for British viewers, just like how Star Trek is the same for America. Pretty much every franchise is ethnocentric to the culture that it's it's produced for.
Nor has Rear Admiral Lower Half ever been spoken in dialogue nor even implied by a one-pip admiral being refered to as Rear Admiral (various sources assume that this is the case due to Americanisms). The closest I can think of would be in s1 of TNG when one and no-pip officers are identified as "Admiral" but the grade isn't given either in case so I prefer to go with the FASA idea that it designates as "Branch Admiral" (officer associated with a branch of Starfleet rather than a specific base or ship).
As far as "USS" goes, at least from TNG onwards it should probably have been FS or FSS as there are plenty of direct references to Starfleet vessels as being "Federation starships" (154 references v 43 for "Starfleet vessel") compared to three references to "United Space Ship" and "United Starship" (combined) all in the first season of TOS.
But Doctor Who has never really claimed to be particularly plausible or realistic. It initially dabbled in being educational, but it left that behind ages ago. It's basically a series of tall tales and ripping yarns. Star Trek was created with the specific goal of being a naturalistic and plausible portrayal of the future. So I hold it to a higher standard of credibility.
Besides, would it really have been that hard for American viewers to handle a prefix other than "U.S.S."? There are tons of American SF works before and since that have come up with different prefixes for their spaceships, so it's not something that takes an enormous mental leap.
Not to mention that "United Space/Star Ship" is just a silly way of rationalizing the use of "U.S.S." It isn't even really a coherent phrase. Usually, ship prefixes denote the nation and the type of ship. "United" isn't a nation. Okay, you can handwave it as "United [Federation of Planets] Star Ship," but that's labored.
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