Lorca: Fans Will Have To Adjust

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And let's not forget that even though we didn't see the changed timeline McCoy accidentally created in "The City on the Edge of Forever" one doesn't have to work very hard to picture an Earth where Hitler used the A-bomb and intercontinental rockets to win World War II and the global darkness and tyranny that soon followed. Hundreds of millions if not billions could have died during the three centuries of evil that followed Edith Keeler's successful efforts to keep the United States out of the war.

Spock's line to Kirk next to the staircase remains one of the most chillingly effective lines of dialogue ever delivered in the Star Trek franchise. "Save her. Do as your heart tells you to do. And millions will die who did not die before."

Pretty dark stuff for '60s television.

And Harlan Ellison has the gall to keep bitching about why his original version of that episode was unfilmable?

(For those not in the know: In that version, Kirk actually tries to save Edith's life, knowing full well what kind of timeline this would lead to. How could anyone possibly trust him after that? There's not a chance in hell that could ever be filmed.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think anyone thought that, but whether it was tone or presentation, Trek has always managed to tell serious and/or dramatic stories that most parents were still comfortable letting their 6-12 year olds watch with them.

While personally I have no issue with a TV-MA (because my kids are adults now), it is a shame that younger parents won't be able to sit and watch Discovery with their children.

I've feeling too many parents were of the SF=kids entertainment philosophy. Trek was developed with an adult audience in mind. It wanted to tell adult stories about adult topics shaded by a SF setting. That probably went over the head of the parents who thought it was "safe" because it was a silly show about monsters and rayguns.

 

[Noname Given]

While personally I have no issue with a TV-MA (because my kids are adults now), it is a shame that younger parents won't be able to sit and watch Discovery with their children.

^^^
Why? the ratings are Guidlines and at least inform a parent (much like MPAA ratings do). IDK about you, but growing up, my parents took me to a LOT of 'R' rated faire because they knew I could handle it (if it was Sci-FI/Horror, they'd look at the ads, and in the case of 'The Exorcist' in 1973 (I was 10) which I wanted to see - my mom went and saw it first; and then went with me to see it (at that age I was easily able to discern and process what was 'fantasy' in a film from what was the 'real world'. Hell, my sister (who was 17 at the time - had more problems handling 'The Exorcist' then I did - of course it didn't help that one night, I went into her room and 'shook' her bed - never heard a scream like that before. And yes, I got punished for that one.

But, my point - in it's day, there was a LOT on TOS in 1966 that WASN'T considered 'family fare'. As the years went on and it went into syndication, that changed (Again, some vocabulary that is considered PC and fine on TV now would have gotten the FCC to file a grievance in 1966.

So, yeah, in more than one way, this version of Star Trek is very much returning to its roots. I think families will still be able to watch it together; but it depends on the parents - and just how much of a parenting role they want to take before allowing younger children to watch. I'm sure some will be fine, but again it depends on the child and the parent.

Oh, and as to the "TNG was always 'family fare' - I guess you forgot this scene from TNG Season 1 - Conspiracy:

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^^^
Yep - there's a REAL GOOD example of 'family friendly Star Trek' there.

 

[Noname Given]

And Harlan Ellison has the gall to keep bitching about why his original version of that episode was unfilmable?

(For those not in the know: In that version, Kirk actually tries to save Edith's life, knowing full well what kind of timeline this would lead to. How could anyone possibly trust him after that? There's not a chance in hell that could ever be filmed.)

^^^
And you forgot to mention the part where Ellison's CotEoF version of the script had Mr. Scott deal drugs (like a pusher) to other members of the 1701's crew.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No, Scotty was not the drug dealer. You're thinking of Beckwith.

 

[Noname Given]

^ No, Scotty was not the drug dealer. You're thinking of Beckwith.

I stand corrected.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And let's not forget that even though we didn't see the changed timeline McCoy accidentally created in "The City on the Edge of Forever" one doesn't have to work very hard to picture an Earth where Hitler used the A-bomb and intercontinental rockets to win World War II and the global darkness and tyranny that soon followed. Hundreds of millions if not billions could have died during the three centuries of evil that followed Edith Keeler's successful efforts to keep the United States out of the war.

Spock's line to Kirk next to the staircase remains one of the most chillingly effective lines of dialogue ever delivered in the Star Trek franchise. "Save her. Do as your heart tells you to do. And millions will die who did not die before."

Pretty dark stuff for '60s television.

Not to mention the punch in the gut that's letting Edith die.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I can't imagine what Kirk must have been feeling at that time, but in the end...

(puts on sunglasses)

...he can't have his cake and Edith too.

YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

 

[cooleddie74]

It pains me to say this, but I'll give you that one.

 

[Amasov]

I suppose its more accurate to say that he was saying that their complaints don't matter, because they'll still watch. That's kind of a funny thing to say because Enterprise certainly proved that Star Trek won't keep getting good ratings purely from fans who will "always watch" regardless of quality, and I can't imagine Discovery, regardless of how much mass appeal it may or may not get, will do very well telling fans that it doesn't matter what they think of the show.

But, did you actually watch Enterprise or did you hate it right away because of this?

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[Mudd]

Actually, Enterprise hung onto the few million diehard Trek fans in the U.S. at that time pretty much until the end. It was all the rest of the audience that had watched TNG and then slowly drifted away from the sequels that continued to abandon Enterprise throughout its four year run.

Trekkies always overestimate how many hard-core fans there are.

 

[donners22]

I stand corrected

Easy mistake to make, since that was a story Roddenberry spread to try to turn people against Ellison's version.

 

[Refuge]

^ I can't imagine what Kirk must have been feeling at that time, but in the end...

(puts on sunglasses)

...he can't have his cake and Edith too.

YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

Post of the year.

 

[BillJ]

I don't think anyone thought that, but whether it was tone or presentation, Trek has always managed to tell serious and/or dramatic stories that most parents were still comfortable letting their 6-12 year olds watch with them.

While personally I have no issue with a TV-MA (because my kids are adults now), it is a shame that younger parents won't be able to sit and watch Discovery with their children.

I plan on watching Discovery with my ten year-old son.

 

[Albinator]

I find that emoji a bid snarky, so maybe you deserve a warning from the moderators.

And while I think that's great for you, without watching it first myself, I would not be, given it's TV-MA rating. I have no idea if there will be sex or violence inapporpriate for a 10 year old.

But when my son was ten, I felt safe showing any episode of TNG, DS9, VOY-- and he was around 7-10 when ENT was new, so we would often sit and watch it together first run, and I never had any worry it would be something inappropriate for him.

I have no issue with you being a more liberal parent in terms of what you let your kids watch, that's your right (maybe your 10 year old is ready for that kind of thing, or maybe you're a terrible parent), but I think you'll agree that with a rating of TV-MA, it's probably not blanket appropriate for all 8-12 year olds, and it is not unreasonable to say most kids should not be watching...

After all, TV-MA is ABOVE TV-14, which is not recommended for audiences under 14 ("without parental supervision" which is an admission that it would not be appropriate for some audiences under 14).

Personally, I prefer Trek to be a family show. Not a kids show, but an adult show that the whole family can watch.

 

[Albinator]

^^^
Why? the ratings are Guidlines and at least inform a parent (much like MPAA ratings do). IDK about you, but growing up, my parents took me to a LOT of 'R' rated faire because they knew I could handle it (if it was Sci-FI/Horror, they'd look at the ads, and in the case of 'The Exorcist' in 1973 (I was 10) which I wanted to see - my mom went and saw it first; and then went with me to see it (at that age I was easily able to discern and process what was 'fantasy' in a film from what was the 'real world'. Hell, my sister (who was 17 at the time - had more problems handling 'The Exorcist' then I did - of course it didn't help that one night, I went into her room and 'shook' her bed - never heard a scream like that before. And yes, I got punished for that one.

But, my point - in it's day, there was a LOT on TOS in 1966 that WASN'T considered 'family fare'. As the years went on and it went into syndication, that changed (Again, some vocabulary that is considered PC and fine on TV now would have gotten the FCC to file a grievance in 1966.

So, yeah, in more than one way, this version of Star Trek is very much returning to its roots. I think families will still be able to watch it together; but it depends on the parents - and just how much of a parenting role they want to take before allowing younger children to watch. I'm sure some will be fine, but again it depends on the child and the parent.

Oh, and as to the "TNG was always 'family fare' - I guess you forgot this scene from TNG Season 1 - Conspiracy:

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^^^
Yep - there's a REAL GOOD example of 'family friendly Star Trek' there.

Sorry, disagree with all points. There's some thematically adult stuff, but nothing I'd deem inappropriate for an 8-10 year old. If you can't see that, than you're just ignoring reality, and what the rating of TV-MA means.

Now, maybe it'll be OK, maybe the TV-MA is resulting from something I'm not realizing that would still be OK for a 10 year old. But when I look around at other TV-MA shows, I don't see much I'd be happy to show a 7-10 year old unsupervised.

Orange Is the New Black, Dexter, American Horror Story, Westworld, Twin Peaks, The Wire...

These are not shows a 7-10 year old should be watching. If Trek is along these lines, I'll watch and I'll love them, but it would have been nicer if it had been, say, TV-14 at most.

If you think "TV-MA" is a "returning to it's roots".... jeez, I don't even know how to respond to that. TOS is TV-PG, all around (in fact there were probably MANY episodes that would have ranked as TV-Y7) TNG had maybe a handful of episodes that would warrant TV-14, DS9 was probably the most adult, and would still have been TV-PG most of the time.

 

[Mudd]

I don't care whether ten year-olds can watch Discovery or not. Just let it be entertaining.

 

[mos6507]

If you think "TV-MA" is a "returning to it's roots".... jeez, I don't even know how to respond to that.

IThe networks during that time had content on lock-down. Sexual language was hidden behind innuendo. Sex scenes happened during commercial breaks. The hardest language on TOS was the "hell" in let's get the hell out of here on City on the Edge of Forever. Scenes of gore were few and far between across all of Trek. That's why things like the transporter accident in TMP is something people my age remember, because that film had the gall to classify itself as rated G. But exceptions never prove the rule.

How Discovery is being described, though, I am wondering whether they are going to have severed limbs and disembowelments via the blade-happy Klingons, just because "well, that's what TV is about these days". Isn't the idea of chasing trends what brought us questionable decisions like the pop song on Enterprise?

They have to make sure if they go there that it is absolutely necessary, otherwise it's just gratuitous exercise in pandering to today's fashion trends, which is what I thought Kelvin-verse reeked of.

 

[BillJ]

I find that emoji a bid snarky, so maybe you deserve a warning from the moderators.

And while I think that's great for you, without watching it first myself, I would not be, given it's TV-MA rating. I have no idea if there will be sex or violence inapporpriate for a 10 year old.

The great thing about watching with your kids? You can answer any questions they have. They aren't learning things from the internet or the playground. I give him honest information, cutting off any misinterpretations from other sources.

Considering I have a daughter that has finished college, owns her own home, has a great career, a son that is in college and just an all-around great person, I'll take my way of raising my kids over other folks any day of the week.

But thanks for your concern. And just so there is no misrepresentation, that is the snarkiest of snark. Snark is not against the board rules.