Starship Insignia

Decker was half of what he was writing about. And all the ship crews in Court Martial wore the arrowhead.

 

Talking about insignias. Does anyone know the origin of the different department symbols and why they took each shape?

 

I know for Where No Man Has Gone Before that engineering and sciences swapped!

 

Keep in mind that based on what we saw in the movies and TNG, those basic uniform designs stuck around for 80 years, way longer than any other version. What's the next runner up? Maybe five years?

 

2373 to at least 2390 for First Contact style. Stopped being used before 2395.

 

His memo was about Starship personnel wearing the delta. Starbase personnel wear the flower. Decker should have worn the delta.
Everyone or just the costuming department? The department Bill Theiss headed and why Justman directed the memo to him.

Is that Roddenberry's spin or were there actual battles being fought against "stupid shit"?

 

Normally I'm on Justman's side but in this case his harping on this is just ridiculous. If he cared enough to notice it and make a federal case out of it, maybe he should have paid attention when The Doomsday Machine was being filmed? And why didn't he prevent this "atrocity" from happening yet again in The Omega Glory? Glad most of the fans and the Enterprise production team ignored him.

 

Deep Space Nine had (3 star) Admiral Toddman, of "Starfleet Security" wearing a gold uniform in 'The Die Is Cast'. He ordered Sisko not to intervene in the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar attempt to wipe out the Founders. It's not really clear what "Starfleet Security" means in this instance, and why a gold Admiral is giving operational orders rather than the usual red shirt.

Satie was retired, she was brought back as someone who could investigate the alleged conspiracy with greater independence. I assume Bones was also retired. His terrible dress sense is a matter of record - see also 'Disco Bones', the Star Trek III outfit, and his drainpipe jeans/cravat look at Yosemite.

 

Still not sure how you blame Justman for carrying out Roddenberry's wishes on the matter? Justman worked for Roddenberry. Roddenberry was the boss.

 

My memory is extremely fuzzy on that. I've read a number of books on th subject over the years, from Gene Coon's book, to all the Shatner and Nimoy memoir books, and I do recall situations when Roddenberry did seem to be fending off silliness from up on high. He, too, was also a source of some of his own silliness, especially in the later years when the studio was giving the movies to other people to manage. He was losing control over his creation and he got increasingly obstructionist over ever little thing, which of course was mostly overruled. He retained a lofty title for the film credits, but he really had no power until TNG was created initially, and then history repeated itself when Berman started taking over. But by that time, Roddenberry's health was starting to fail and he was starting to pull away from it anyway.

Again, it's been years since I read all these things and I can't remember specifics, but the whole franchise really was a political dumpster fire. I'm honestly surprised any of them got anything done.

 

Understood. I'm referring to Justman because he wrote the memo. Whether Roddenberry or 4,000 other people told him to write it isn't really material to my point, which is that I find the contents of the memo ridiculous, although I typically find Justman's memos (again, irrespective of who may or may not have told him to write them) totally meritorious and on point.

 

I skimmed through the thread, so apologies if it's already been mentioned, but in the novelization of TMP which I read many many years ago, I am pretty sure (admittedly memory can play tricks?) Roddenberry mentions in his role as "official historian" that the move towards using the Enterprise insignia for all starships came only after the (apparently remarkable) successful end of its 5 year mission under Kirk's command. Production error or not, if I do remember correctly, Roddenberry himself seemed to think at that point that each ship previously had its own insignia.

(ON EDIT) Looks like my memory is faulty; skimmed through the preface and first chapter of my cooy of the novelization of TMP and don't find mention of the insignia. I know read that bit about the insignia being aligned after Kirk's 5 year mission a looong time ago, maybe in a "Best of Trek" anthology (in which case it would be pure fan speculation). Justman's memo notwithstanding, there is still clearly evidence to both support and discount the different insignias. Perhaps equal evidence (2 episodes each if I've counted correctly) for each side, since TOS just didn't give us that many glimpses of other starship crews. I'm one who goes by the multiple insignia notion. I think those of us who do are in good company.

 

I like the multiple insignia's, but am not married to the idea. If other creators use it or don't is really of no consequence to me.

 

That is a good approach for people to take when it comes to matters of disagreement over what is "real / true" or not in fiction.

 

From Memory Alpha (fwiw):

He has the unique distinction of wearing an operations division gold admiral's uniform. To date, he is the only 24th century era flag officer to not wear command red as his division color. However, there is a 23rd century precedent to this practice, as all TOSflag officers wore command division gold except for two Commodores, Stone and Stocker. Interestingly enough, the background behind Admiral Toddman (with the setting sun on a dark sky) appears to be a partial homage to the set and matte paintings created for Starbase 11, for the office of the very same Commodore Stone in TOS: "Court Martial"

 

Does it really count if you have to drag the novel continuity into it, though? Memory Alpha says that Nemesis took place in 2379. That's a six-year window.

 

No novels, just time travel. Voyagers "Timeless" is set in 2390 and shows Captain Laforge in First Contact style with the later combadge, All Good Things is the earliest appearance of the next uniforms in 2395. And "The Visitor" shows AGT style in use to at least 2422.

 

None of those futures were shown to be definitive. (At least I'm assuming that "Timeless" wasn't. I'd given up on VOY by the time that episode aired.)

 

"The Visitor" also shows the collared TNG style continuing through 2389, so that's at least an honorable mention at 23 years in timelines where the Dominion War never happened. I think the Prime Universe runner-up may be the uncollared TNG uniform, at somewhere between 13 and 18 years based on flashbacks (between when we first see a TNG uniform and last see a TWOK variant).

 

Based on Sisko switching back to the TNG style while on Earth, I'm confident the First Contact uniforms officialy replaced the TNG uniforms not the Voyager/early DS9 style. Voyager style always being an alternate "working" type.