Did Sisko commit a war crime?

[Jono]

This opens a can of worms, though. Sisko scraped together enough trilithium to commit planeticide - from just one little ship. The dozens or hundreds of ships down on the planet (any planet) should pose an immense risk to the planet just by existing, then. Why aren't more planets dead? And if means exist to fight trilithium contamination, why is Sisko's threat effective?

We have the means to provide clean and safe drinking water, yet millions around the world don't have access to clean water. The Maquis might be in a similar situation: there are ways to deal with it, but the Maquis don't have the capacity to do so. Maybe they could deal with a local contamination, but planetary is just...too big. It could also be a time factor. They might be able to deal with it, but it would take too long that the population would have to evacuate anyway.

 

[Ithekro]

Humans wouldn't be able to live there for about 50 years. Whatever was done was not permanent. Cardassians could move it right away though.

 

[Voth commando1]

Thing is there wouldn't be any humans there as the Maquis colonists were slaughtered by the Jem'hadar.

 

[Ithekro]

Which would have happened regardless as it turns out.

 

[Voth commando1]

Depends I'd think on the situation with the wormhole and the obsidian order/Tal Shiar operation went well(pyrhically).

The Maquis were within range of total victory. Cardassia was on its last legs-the Klingons had crushed them, the government was unstable and teetering. The dominion had not yet established themselves in Cardassian space. Say Gul Dukat was assassinated in the weeks prior to his signing Cardassia to the dominion or he was killed in his quixotic campaign against the Klingons.

The defeat of the Maquis wasn't inevitable at all.

 

[Ithekro]

None of that hinges on Eddington or Sisko's choices during this episode. Nor is a Maquis victory likely in any scenario...at least not one were they remain free. They either continue to live subject to Cardassian laws once the war ends, or fall under Klingon law because they get annexed by the Empire as it continues on its conquests and buffers its Federation border. A free and independent state is pure delusion from Eddington's hero complex and not even remotely plausible. He can make all the declarations he pleased and even made their shadow government a reality. But the Cadassians, nor the Klingons at going to stand and let them be free once they are done with each other. The Federation might let them go if it was up to them, but it wasn't. The Maquis planets were in Cardassian space for the most part, with potential sympathetic worlds on the Federation side of the border, but it is doubtful any of those worlds would join the Maquis goverement as they still can be protected by Starfleet, while the Maquis planets cannot since they are in Cardassian space.

 

[Timo]

Do we really learn that most of the Maquis worlds would be in Cardassian space? The specific ones we visit are never stated to be on that side of the national border, after all. To the contrary, the Maquis Macias in "Preemptive Strike" tells a backstory of how he used to live on the Cardassian side, and clearly he no longer does - the implication being that being Maquis is incompatible with living on that side. It's an us vs. them situation where "they" are driving out non-Cardassians from worlds under Cardassian rule, like they drove Macias.

Given that situation, would the Cardassian raids against human (or assorted human-allied-species) DMZ planets really happen on human DMZ planets under Cardassian jurisdiction? Shouldn't the Cardassian raiders instead target those worlds under UFP jurisdiction, for the greater glory of the Union? And shouldn't the Maquis therefore largely pop up on said UFP-ruled worlds, and subsequently operate out of those worlds? Macias tells us that if there are Cardassian authorities in place, then no raids are necessary, because the Cardassians can just beat up the humans and be patted on the head.

When Sisko goes toe to toe with Cal Hudson, isn't the point that Hudson works on colonies on the UFP side of the border? Would he be allowed to work on the CU side at all?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

MA indicates that Cal Hudson was "Starfleet's first attaché to the Federation colonies in the Demilitarized Zone", so no, the colonies (at least the ones Hudson was involved with) weren't on the UFP side of the border.

It seems to me that when the treaty was signed some planets explicitly changed ownership between the Federation and the Cardassian Union, while others may or may not have changed ownership but also found themselves within the DMZ.

I suspect there were Maquis all over the place: old or new Federation-owned colonies near the border, Federation colonies in the DMZ and new Cardassian-owned colonies.

 

[Nyotarules]

Yeah and what do you do after that?

Do what Scotty did, buy a boat.

 

[Timo]

MA indicates that Cal Hudson was "Starfleet's first attaché to the Federation colonies in the Demilitarized Zone", so no, the colonies (at least the ones Hudson was involved with) weren't on the UFP side of the border.

Huh?

Why would "Federation colonies in the DMZ" not be on the UFP side of the border?

The DMZ is not a border. It's a zone that covers both sides of the border, blanketing worlds under UFP jurisdiction and worlds under CU jurisdiction. We know of two worlds that were under CU jurisdiction but did not have (purely) Cardassian population: Dorvan V from TNG "Journey's End" (a situation preceding the formation of the DMZ, and we don't know what happened afterwards), and Juhraya from TNG "Preemptive Strike" (a situation affected by the existence of the DMZ already). We never heard of a Cardassian colony that would have fallen under UFP jurisdiction so that the Cardassians would have agreed on staying - indeed we hear of no Cardassians outside purely Cardassian colonies, except when they are raiding, but the episodes certainly aren't explicit about it being impossible or exceptional for a Cardassian to travel "abroad". Perhaps there are legitimate Cardassian traders and tourists and even settlers?

Nevertheless, UFP citizens certainly straddle the border which runs (partially) inside the DMZ, and the dialogue of "The Maquis" does not tell us which side of the border Cal Hudson attachéd over.

It seems to me that when the treaty was signed some planets explicitly changed ownership between the Federation and the Cardassian Union, while others may or may not have changed ownership but also found themselves within the DMZ.

We get examples of both scenarios in the various episodes, yes.

I suspect there were Maquis all over the place: old or new Federation-owned colonies near the border, Federation colonies in the DMZ and new Cardassian-owned colonies.

Yup. But this is neither denied nor confirmed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

None of that hinges on Eddington or Sisko's choices during this episode. Nor is a Maquis victory likely in any scenario...at least not one were they remain free. They either continue to live subject to Cardassian laws once the war ends, or fall under Klingon law because they get annexed by the Empire as it continues on its conquests and buffers its Federation border. A free and independent state is pure delusion from Eddington's hero complex and not even remotely plausible. He can make all the declarations he pleased and even made their shadow government a reality. But the Cadassians, nor the Klingons at going to stand and let them be free once they are done with each other. The Federation might let them go if it was up to them, but it wasn't. The Maquis planets were in Cardassian space for the most part, with potential sympathetic worlds on the Federation side of the border, but it is doubtful any of those worlds would join the Maquis goverement as they still can be protected by Starfleet, while the Maquis planets cannot since they are in Cardassian space.

Precisely this. The Maquis would be a very small fish in a very large ocean. If the Cardassians are crushed by the Klingons, is here an honest expectation that the Maquis colonies won't fall under their territorial banner? At best, the Federation negotiates for their return as part of the new discussions with an expanded Klingon Empire, and, at worst, the Maquis are vassal states the Klingons.

A Pyrrhic victory just leaves them more vulnerable to outside powers that are much larger than them.

 

[DonIago]

Huh?

Why would "Federation colonies in the DMZ" not be on the UFP side of the border?

The DMZ is not a border. It's a zone that covers both sides of the border, blanketing worlds under UFP jurisdiction and worlds under CU jurisdiction. We know of two worlds that were under CU jurisdiction but did not have (purely) Cardassian population: Dorvan V from TNG "Journey's End" (a situation preceding the formation of the DMZ, and we don't know what happened afterwards), and Juhraya from TNG "Preemptive Strike" (a situation affected by the existence of the DMZ already). We never heard of a Cardassian colony that would have fallen under UFP jurisdiction so that the Cardassians would have agreed on staying - indeed we hear of no Cardassians outside purely Cardassian colonies, except when they are raiding, but the episodes certainly aren't explicit about it being impossible or exceptional for a Cardassian to travel "abroad". Perhaps there are legitimate Cardassian traders and tourists and even settlers?

Nevertheless, UFP citizens certainly straddle the border which runs (partially) inside the DMZ, and the dialogue of "The Maquis" does not tell us which side of the border Cal Hudson attachéd over.

My interpretation, and perhaps I'm just misinterpreting the text, is that the geography was essentially as follows:
UFP Space
DMZ Space with Federation planets (some of which were previously Cardassian) - Which Hudson spoke for.
DMZ Space with Cardassian planets (some of which were previously Federation) - Which Gul Evek spoke for?
Cardassian Space

Now, based on my understanding of the border, the DMZ space may get a bit muddled versus being any clear-cut division between where Federation "space" ends and Cardassian begins, but that's somewhat irrelevant. The point is that Hudson represented the UFP colonies in the DMZ, but because they were in the DMZ they weren't in Federation space in the strictest sense.

 

[Arpy]

Kira said once they got to the Maquis planet that they showed no signs of preparations to evacuate. They'd also only had less than an hour to make any in the first place. We shouldn't make this too easy for Sisko. The episode didn't. He poisoned the planet knowing they weren't ready. What we didn't see were the collateral damage of that decision and whatever flack he got for it from Starfleet Command, if any. ...Maybe he's still being tried in civil court?

My interpretation, and perhaps I'm just misinterpreting the text, is that the geography was essentially as follows:
UFP Space
DMZ Space with Federation planets (some of which were previously Cardassian) - Which Hudson spoke for.
DMZ Space with Cardassian planets (some of which were previously Federation) - Which Gul Evek spoke for?
Cardassian Space

Now, based on my understanding of the border, the DMZ space may get a bit muddled versus being any clear-cut division between where Federation "space" ends and Cardassian begins, but that's somewhat irrelevant. The point is that Hudson represented the UFP colonies in the DMZ, but because they were in the DMZ they weren't in Federation space in the strictest sense.

That's what I thought too. It isn't a Neutral Zone where no ships of either side are permitted ever. It's just a demilitarized one where stations and fleets and patrols aren't, but there's some permeability permitted -- both Evec's ship and the Enterprise crossed into the zone in "Preemptive Strike," yeah? I don't remember that being as tense as Picard and Tomolok standing off over crossing into the Neutral Zone.

Maybe it should have been like the Neutral Zone(s), but that's not what I got.

 

[DonIago]

My understanding was that Starfleet and Cardassian ships were allowed into the DMZ as long as they weren't engaging in hostile activity or arming the colonists. In other words, the colonists were supposed to have been essentially literally demilitarized (maybe they could keep small hand phasers for self-defense?).

 

[Voth commando1]

That may have been the official treaty but the Cardassians were violating it consistently and without shame. The federation was violating it sporadically and in a far more limited manner.

 

[Prax]

The DMZ was a buffer zone consisting of Federation and Cardassian worlds. No military forces were allowed inside. The Enterprise D was not allowed inside.

It was to prevent hostilities from resuming. The truth is, that the border wars never ended.

The Neutral Zone was a similar buffer zone, an area that the Federation and Romulans agreed not to expand into, nor even enter. The worlds inside it were independent.

It's a bit silly to have a treaty with Cardassia and then establish a "DMZ." A DMZ implies that there is no treaty, but merely a ceasefire, or stalemate, and that intentions have not at all changed from what they were during the war, but neither side could gain an advantage through warfare.

 

[Ithekro]

I got the impression that the DMZ was a result of the colonists on both sides refusing to leave but being willing to be on the otherside of the border as long as they can stay. The treaty seemed to swap planets as a new border was established. The colonists refusing to move destabalized the situation, resulting in the DMZ compromise that no one seemed to like.

 

[Voth commando1]

Precisely this. The Maquis would be a very small fish in a very large ocean. If the Cardassians are crushed by the Klingons, is here an honest expectation that the Maquis colonies won't fall under their territorial banner? At best, the Federation negotiates for their return as part of the new discussions with an expanded Klingon Empire, and, at worst, the Maquis are vassal states the Klingons.

A Pyrrhic victory just leaves them more vulnerable to outside powers that are much larger than them.

I think you are a little too hard on the Maquis. Eddington had already proven himself a wily commander and leader of men(and women) why couldn't he play the rump Cardassians against the Klingons and the Federation against the Klingons?

Small fish have swam with the sharks since the beginning of time.

 

[fireproof78]

I think you are a little too hard on the Maquis. Eddington had already proven himself a wily commander and leader of men(and women) why couldn't he play the rump Cardassians against the Klingons and the Federation against the Klingons?

Small fish have swam with the sharks since the beginning of time.

I think this gives the Maquis, especially Eddington too much credit. Against the Federation and the Cardassians, maybe they have a chance. Not as much as you give them, but I can see that point of view.

However, the Klingons are a different enemy and even if Eddington knows how to fight them, that doesn't mean all the Maquis do or can manage a Klingon fleet.

 

[Timo]

ITRW, there are no true neutral zones between nations today. Neutrality would semantically seem to imply the exact opposite of being associated with a nation, though - and in practice it would be true no-man's-land, like the killing zone between the Berlins where any human presence would be an offense punishable by death without trial.

There are some disputed areas that the majority of this planet does not acknowledge as belonging to any specific state, usually on wasteland stretches of disputed borders. But somebody always makes a claim for such areas, even against majority/UN opinion or whatever...

There are demilitarized zones on Earth, though. The Wikipedia article on those displays a range of possibilities, including a sharp and well agreed-upon national border that just gets further padded (on one or two sides) by a zone where military presence is forbidden. A DMZ on Sinai today is an example of such, and Rhineland in Germany used to be a very famous example.

In the Trek case, we have to remember how the DMZ came to be. In "The Wounded", we learned the war was over but disputes remained. In "Journey's End", we learned a treaty would seal the peace by clarifying and geometrically simplifying the border, this achieved by ceding planets back and forth, with adjoining mass deportations of inhabitants. This did not work too well, so we next hear of the DMZ in DS9 "The Maquis" and TNG "Preemptive Strike", where worlds under clear-cut UFP and CU control still unhappily intermingle inside a zone where military presence is forbidden.

"Preemptive Strike" has our heroes describe the DMZ as being "along the Cardassian border", meaning a national border still exists. But is it to one side of the DMZ or meandering through it? In "Tribunal", Boone lives on "the Cardassian side of the DMZ", but does that mean Cardassian space beyond the DMZ or within the DMZ? There's still a bit of room for argument even with all the tidbits put together.

Timo Saloniemi