TOS Kirk gave Khan a chance. He even admired him.
Does Picard hate us?
- Thread starter Prax
- Start date
And apparently kept on admiring him despite his antics, considering the outcome.
...I'd rather argue give them the full broadside for the first week so that they realize they have to adapt. Otherwise they'll just stay Nazi or whatever, and get killed when first opening their mouth next to some third party.
Timo Saloniemi
...I'd rather argue give them the full broadside for the first week so that they realize they have to adapt. Otherwise they'll just stay Nazi or whatever, and get killed when first opening their mouth next to some third party.
Timo Saloniemi
Which ended up being a splendid choice - stop killing my jokes with facts.
Send them to Andor. Picard tells defrosted neo- Nazi - "You believe you're the master race..let me introduce you to one of Earth's oldest allies."
Or introduce them to Trump's 24th century descendants, everyone of them either Jewish American, African American, Mexican American or part alien. Result neo Nazi dies from heart attack.
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I think it's exaggerated how rude Picard was to the survivors; he clearly dislikes and is even repulsed by Ralph, although I think he was initially hopeful that he could adjust well to the future, but, while puzzled by the other two he wasn't hostile to them and they seemed to get along pretty well with and be helped by Data and Troi.
The tone of this episode seems to be to show how much more enlightened 24th century folks were over 20th century folks but I think it's pretty pompous and presumptuous for Picard to declare to Ralph that "we've grown out of our infancy." Future generations would surely take issue with that statement.
Love of family, love of God, good wine, dancing to music.
It would be like meeting anyone for the first time, you look for similarities, not differences. However, even if they spoke the english of their day, I doubt that modern english speakers would be able to communicate.
I like how the novelverse handled them in the DTI books, they all had established successful careers in the Federation, including capitalist Ralph Offenhouse, who became ambassador to the Ferengi. Perfect job for him!
Ha, that's great! I've thought before when watching this episode: "I bet the novels picked up these characters..."
What became of the other two?
Clare became a counselor with the DTI to aid other temporally displaced people, and Sonny sang songs from his era and became a celeb. They had a one night stand born out of their mutual angst over being displaced. It went nowhere.
Not to mention the constant propaganda assault on any science we feel is disagreeable... AND the slow agonizing demise of the manned space program itself. It's as if any aspiration of bettering ourselves went right out the window in lieu of expending our efforts out-jargoning the other guy
I don't think Picard likes the era, sure. In Encounter at Farpoint were even the near-future is universally barbaric. It's hard to be sympathetic with that. Also, 1st season Picard, he's plain cantankerous and a forbidding guy about most things. He does not relate well to children for example.
But I also think what's at play is that in the 24th century they have reached a philosophical understanding in respect to death. So it's no biggie to leave them (or anyone) dead who has already been long dead.
But I also think what's at play is that in the 24th century they have reached a philosophical understanding in respect to death. So it's no biggie to leave them (or anyone) dead who has already been long dead.
What values would we share(with an average Joe, or even average educated joe)Honesty, hard work, community, how to treat guests, family, holidays, county fairs, et al.
As I write this, I think you may be right. In fact, they might be ashamed of us. They would surely be much more humble than westerners today.
Also, I don't think it is reasonable to expect people to drop their cultural biases overnight.
After all, in our time it can take years for a refugee to properly adapt to a new culture. Some never manage to do so. (I'm choosing a refugee instead of a migrant for comparison because the people in the ep really didn't come to the 24th century voluntarily).
After all, in our time it can take years for a refugee to properly adapt to a new culture. Some never manage to do so. (I'm choosing a refugee instead of a migrant for comparison because the people in the ep really didn't come to the 24th century voluntarily).
...It should be remembered they very much did volunteer to be displaced in time. Or Ralph and Sonny did; Clare was displaced by her hubby.
Whether they volunteered for the 24th century specifically, well, apparently not. But even if they did, they wouldn't have been making an informed decision. At best, Ralph made an ill-informed one, counting on things that failed to transpire. So what they volunteered to, essentially, was what they got: a dive off the end they hoped would be the deep one, except there were sharp rocks at ten inches after all.
Timo Saloniemi
Whether they volunteered for the 24th century specifically, well, apparently not. But even if they did, they wouldn't have been making an informed decision. At best, Ralph made an ill-informed one, counting on things that failed to transpire. So what they volunteered to, essentially, was what they got: a dive off the end they hoped would be the deep one, except there were sharp rocks at ten inches after all.
Timo Saloniemi
There's numerous things to consider here. Largely the people in "The '37s" weren't dead. They were in stasis, still alive.
The people in TNZ were dead! They had died of various diseases (aneurysm, hear complications, liver failure, IRC.) But their conditions could be repaired and they could be revived in the 24c. But up until that point there were dead and their bodies simply preserved before they could deteriorate beyond recovery. From Picard's POV he's right. They're dead, what more could have happened to them?
As for his disdain for them, also look at from his perspective these people were in a society that was near the brink of a massive war and holocaust that brought the world to its knees for decades until First Contact with the Vulcans. These people are 400 years in the past to him and, from his POV in an "enlightened" future, they're primitives.
The people who lived in the 17th century compared to us were savages and had no decorum or moral guide. They saw virtually everyone who wasn't a white male as a second-class citizen and....
Shit! I lost my point. Well, you get the idea, a 17th century person would hardly be as civil and accepting of our diverse, equitable, culture as a 21st century person is.
So, I wouldn't say Picard "hates" us (he was, afterall, a fan of 20th century pulp-fiction detective novels) from his POV he just saw us as "lesser" people and he's right. Just as much as we're right for thinking the same about 17th century people. They're "lesser" not because of any fault of their own but because they lived in such a very savage, radically different time. They would be utterly unfit to live in today.
The people in TNZ were dead! They had died of various diseases (aneurysm, hear complications, liver failure, IRC.) But their conditions could be repaired and they could be revived in the 24c. But up until that point there were dead and their bodies simply preserved before they could deteriorate beyond recovery. From Picard's POV he's right. They're dead, what more could have happened to them?
As for his disdain for them, also look at from his perspective these people were in a society that was near the brink of a massive war and holocaust that brought the world to its knees for decades until First Contact with the Vulcans. These people are 400 years in the past to him and, from his POV in an "enlightened" future, they're primitives.
The people who lived in the 17th century compared to us were savages and had no decorum or moral guide. They saw virtually everyone who wasn't a white male as a second-class citizen and....
Shit! I lost my point. Well, you get the idea, a 17th century person would hardly be as civil and accepting of our diverse, equitable, culture as a 21st century person is.
So, I wouldn't say Picard "hates" us (he was, afterall, a fan of 20th century pulp-fiction detective novels) from his POV he just saw us as "lesser" people and he's right. Just as much as we're right for thinking the same about 17th century people. They're "lesser" not because of any fault of their own but because they lived in such a very savage, radically different time. They would be utterly unfit to live in today.
Would he have eventually tried to re-invent Hill for the modern age; that is, insert 24th century values into what he said to the holographic characters? They'd look at him like he grew another head. Though Vic Fontaine seemed to take everything DS9 crew said to him in stride, and the Fair Haven characters were cool with the crew of Voyager after being convinced they weren't "spirit folk".
<softly singing>
Jean-Luc hates us, this I know
For trek posters tell me so ...
Jean-Luc hates us, this I know
For trek posters tell me so ...
Q!
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