Picard couldn't have supplied evidence of Dominion treachery because at that point the Domain was meticulously keeping to its treaties with Alpha Quadrant powers. They weren't strong enough to take on the whole Alpha Quadrant at once, so some of them needed to believe that their word was good.
Did Sisko commit a war crime?
- Thread starter jonds91
- Start date
While I love Picard, this is a Sisko thread and a DS9 arc. If you paid Stewart enough to do a two-parter to bring the Romulans into the war, great - expedition to Romulus! But if Sisko felt he was going to take on bringing them into the war faster than half the professionals in the Diplomatic Corps, then what I'd expect from him was using every contact and favor and chip owed him and figure out a plan to get proof or get to Romulus himself - maybe send genetically-enhanced Bashir on a mission to get info, fooling Section 31 to get them what he needed? Maybe get Garak back in his gardening stomping-grounds on Romulus to find intel? Or send him to Dr. Crusher for some ears...that could have been a fun episode to see DS9 characters Romulanified.
Or get the Tholians or Talarians or Jaradans or Gorn in the war instead, or use the Breen to get the Romulans in somehow. Point is, if Sisko's going to get the Romulans in the war, I'd want to see a sweeping two-parter in which he does...maybe a Nimoy goes stint, and ending with strings of green armadas making way from Romulus to bring the Dominion Romulan warplay, or something....maybe we'd have gotten some cool new Romulan ships out of it.
Or get the Tholians or Talarians or Jaradans or Gorn in the war instead, or use the Breen to get the Romulans in somehow. Point is, if Sisko's going to get the Romulans in the war, I'd want to see a sweeping two-parter in which he does...maybe a Nimoy goes stint, and ending with strings of green armadas making way from Romulus to bring the Dominion Romulan warplay, or something....maybe we'd have gotten some cool new Romulan ships out of it.
TNG was too timid to tell a story like In the Pale Moonlight. When the Klingon war of succession broke out in Redemption, he turned away from playing any role, not trying to convince any Klingon of the extent of Romulan interference. Instead, he focused on a technological solution in the hope of exposing the Romulans. He would have convinced no one.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure the Klingons knew there was Romulan involvement. The reason why "Redemption" plays out the way it does is the rationalization that if the Federation can't directly interfere with the Klingon civil war, they can at least make an effort to keep the Romulans from doing the same.
Picard didn't have the streak of ruthlessness and cold-bloodedness that Sisko had. He would not have done what Sisko did in "In the Pale Moonlight". He just didn't have it in him.
Besides, I think TNG stories tried to be too pure. TNG writers didn't want to sully Picard's personality and reputation.
However, in "Redemption", Picard did involve himself in Klingon internal affairs by being arbiter of succession. Picard violated the principle of non-interference. But I guess in Picard's mind, being arbiter wasn't dirty or underhanded. In that regard, being arbiter was clean and official.
But when the dirty part came with the Klingon civil war, and actual fighting, Picard walked away.
Besides, I think TNG stories tried to be too pure. TNG writers didn't want to sully Picard's personality and reputation.
However, in "Redemption", Picard did involve himself in Klingon internal affairs by being arbiter of succession. Picard violated the principle of non-interference. But I guess in Picard's mind, being arbiter wasn't dirty or underhanded. In that regard, being arbiter was clean and official.
But when the dirty part came with the Klingon civil war, and actual fighting, Picard walked away.
Well that is part of his character-Picard is what did I say previously? A moral paragon. Someone with the highest standards, not even really a person but an icon or idea of federation values and ideals.
Sisko in an interesting contrast-doesn't really believe in the Federation his cynicism in The Maquis is a good example as well I'd say as his actions in the pale moonlight-I'd say he did what he did more for Jake and arguably Bajor than he did for the Federation.
Another contrast is passion-Sisko and by extension DS9 are very passionate, letting love or hatred, or any other emotion flow through them. TNG is much colder far more rational and stoic in its pathos.
This explains DS9's treatment of Vulcans and Sisko's disdain for them in particular.
Joining a war by diplomatic convincing and arm twisting is possible and has happened in RL. Picard had a lot of experience dealing with the Romulans, he knew more than a few of them as adversaries throughout the years, and given that there existed a pro-federation faction in the senate he could have used that to his advantage.
Sisko in an interesting contrast-doesn't really believe in the Federation his cynicism in The Maquis is a good example as well I'd say as his actions in the pale moonlight-I'd say he did what he did more for Jake and arguably Bajor than he did for the Federation.
Another contrast is passion-Sisko and by extension DS9 are very passionate, letting love or hatred, or any other emotion flow through them. TNG is much colder far more rational and stoic in its pathos.
This explains DS9's treatment of Vulcans and Sisko's disdain for them in particular.
Joining a war by diplomatic convincing and arm twisting is possible and has happened in RL. Picard had a lot of experience dealing with the Romulans, he knew more than a few of them as adversaries throughout the years, and given that there existed a pro-federation faction in the senate he could have used that to his advantage.
And I thought First Contact ended differently.
I think she is talking about Descent.
Actually, I, Borg, but my point is that in the end, Picard's diplomacy and morality were at best minor parts of his Borg solution.
Ah error on my part.
Well in the Destiny novels he advocated thalaronic weapons. But that was a different situation.
Picard isn't an "ends justify the means" he is more a "principled means gets you principled ends."
Which is interesting because also according to the Beta Canon Picard and the Enterprise were running around doing diplomacy and not combat(though they did engage in combat).
Diplomacy is Picard's specialty not combat.
Well in the Destiny novels he advocated thalaronic weapons. But that was a different situation.
Picard isn't an "ends justify the means" he is more a "principled means gets you principled ends."
Which is interesting because also according to the Beta Canon Picard and the Enterprise were running around doing diplomacy and not combat(though they did engage in combat).
Diplomacy is Picard's specialty not combat.
But not everyone in Maquis colonies participated in those things. Remember, Sisko targets a Maquis "colony." Not a Maquis raider base or a weapons depot - a colony. In other words, he chose a civilian, not a military, target.
Sisko says all this explicitly:
EDDINGTON: (hologram) What are you really up to, Javert? Do you expect me to believe that a decorated Starfleet officer, the pride of the service, is going to poison an entire planet?
SISKO: That's exactly what I'm going to do.
EDDINGTON: You're bluffing.
SISKO: Am I? Commander, launch torpedoes. Commander, I said launch torpedoes!
WORF: Aye, sir.
(Two lights impact the atmosphere, and it starts turning yellow.)
KIRA: The trilithium resin is dissipating throughout the biosphere. The Maquis are scrambling their transport ships. They're starting to evacuate.
EDDINGTON: Do you realise what you've done?
SISKO: I've only just begun. I'm going to eliminate every Maquis colony in the DMZ.
EDDINGTON: You're talking about turning hundreds of thousands of people into homeless refugees.
SISKO: That's right. ...
EDDINGTON: But think about those people you saw in the caves, huddled and starving. They didn't attack the Malinche.
SISKO: You should have thought about that before you attacked a Federation starship.
So Sisko knows that he is not targeting Maquis combatants in general or even the specific combatants who attacked the Malinche.
Furthermore, Sisko's own words show that he knew what he was doing was wrong. In his conversation with Jadzia when he comes up with his plan, he says "it's time for me to become the villain." He later admits that he did not inform Starfleet of his plan and says that taking a big gamble is "what it takes to be a good villain."
And that was Eddington's error he should have expected Sisko wouldn't retain any restraint after he one-upped him.
In a very real sense, there are no Maquis civilians.
Guilt by association.
Not only are your suppositions full of holes, "Heart of Stone" clearly establishes them as distinct groups.Maquis was a subset of the colonist, one that raised the flag of rebellion.
I looked up Heart of Stone and I didn't find anything about distinguishing them as groups. Did I miss the right line or did you mean another episode?
In any case, the Maquis being a subset of the total population of colonists in the DMZ does not mean that there were no civilians among them.
Eddington says Sisko would displace "hundreds of thousands of people." I know Eddington in general is not a reliable source but here Sisko does not contradict him. Assuming that number is a fair estimate, it would not make sense for the Maquis to have a population of hundreds of thousands and have them all be combatants. That would be a huge force yet the Maquis is always shown as desperate and outnumbered, an significant irritant to surrounding governments but not a major threat. Again, "colony" is an odd term if the location was purely a military base. In "Blaze of Glory," Eddington claims that the "Maquis colonies" were going to declare themselves a sovereign state. Armies don't declare themselves nations, populations do.
In short, given the population number referred to and the terminology used, it does not make sense to assume that the colonies were only populated by combatants. Rather, the term Maquis came to represent both the armed force and the general population it fought for.
In any case, the Maquis being a subset of the total population of colonists in the DMZ does not mean that there were no civilians among them.
Eddington says Sisko would displace "hundreds of thousands of people." I know Eddington in general is not a reliable source but here Sisko does not contradict him. Assuming that number is a fair estimate, it would not make sense for the Maquis to have a population of hundreds of thousands and have them all be combatants. That would be a huge force yet the Maquis is always shown as desperate and outnumbered, an significant irritant to surrounding governments but not a major threat. Again, "colony" is an odd term if the location was purely a military base. In "Blaze of Glory," Eddington claims that the "Maquis colonies" were going to declare themselves a sovereign state. Armies don't declare themselves nations, populations do.
In short, given the population number referred to and the terminology used, it does not make sense to assume that the colonies were only populated by combatants. Rather, the term Maquis came to represent both the armed force and the general population it fought for.
Which is why I can not believe they all survived-hundred's of thousands of people can't board ships fast enough.
I believe the point is that the actions of Eddington's radicals had essentially "ruined it for everyone" from a Starfleet (or at least Sisko's) perspective.
As I've stated before, it's a shame we never got any Maquis perspective on themselves and Eddington's actions.
"We didn't even ask for his leadership, and then he comes in here and starts bloodying Starfleet's nose. What are we going to do when they respond with force?"
As I've stated before, it's a shame we never got any Maquis perspective on themselves and Eddington's actions.
"We didn't even ask for his leadership, and then he comes in here and starts bloodying Starfleet's nose. What are we going to do when they respond with force?"
It wasn't hundreds of thousands on that specific planet, and as the dialogue snippet provided shows, they were ready to evacuate pretty much instantaneously.
