World wide (Humanity as a whole) it's more Europeans that are the exception.
Middle-Easterners in "Discovery"
- Thread starter Lord Garth
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Even as a Atheist I have to say you're dead wrong.
For good or bad, religion isn't going away or changing their various doctrines or belief systems as practiced in the next 400 years - or the next millennium. There are plenty of educated and intelligent people who are still religious - and gain something from what they practice. There's a reason religions have survived longer than many civilizations - and that's because (for reasons I will admit I honestly do not understand) it gives many comfort and a sense of belonging to 'something greater'.
Frankly, America is an outlier and Americans take religion way (way!) more seriously than westerners in general.
Percentages of people in European countries who said in 2010 that they "believe there is a God"
And if you would ask Europeans, if they go to the church, mosque, etc. more than 3 times a year or if they pray more than 5 times a year, you would get far, far lower percentages. Not to mention when it comes to following some religious rules like not having sex outside marriage. Religions are influencing the daily life less and less. A lot who may believe in a god or gods are not really practising their religion anymore.
A triumph of reason over superstition. It is not western concept, merely that development is further in some western counties (USA is notably lagging behind.) As the level of education and standards of living improve world wide, other countries will follow the pattern.
Frankly, America is an outlier and Americans take religion way (way!) more seriously than westerners in general.
Percentages of people in European countries who said in 2010 that they "believe there is a God"
Religion is in decline in western countries, this is a fact. It correlates with better education, this is also a fact. Whether this will eventually lead to religion becoming nigh extinct, no one of course can say for sure. It is getting pretty close to that in certain Scandinavian countries already.
As for actual topic, I really find it sad (if quite telling) that how the first response to a post asking for more and non-stereotyped representation of people of middle-eastern descent directly jump to the religion while no such thing was mentioned in the original post.
That's arguable, a few countries do stand out with visible increase in Atheism, mainly United Kingdom and France, while theism is still the majority in a vast majority of European countries and has actually seen a dramatic increase since the fall of socialism in half of Europe (half of that is conveniently greyed out in this map). In the 1980s atheism was the norm throughout eastern Europe, now you see a massive amount of churches being built throughout the continent, I see religious symbols in public transportation, it's a degree of religious dedication that hasn't been seen in Europe in over 50 years. Not to mention newly muslim countries such as Bosnia, Albania and Turkey, which were completely secular just decades ago, especially Turkey which is now moving away from secularism altogether. Then you have countries with huge populations such as Spain, Italy, Ukraine, Poland which have a huge proportion of theists and nothing is indicating a decline.
You can also note enormous progress in the United Kingdom, Atheists are now in the majority, still the decline of theism is not universal. It's difficult to objectively quantify it in Europe since genuine sociology wasn't available until roughly 1990 in eastern Europe. Overall, the situation is shifted for the better in western Europe and for the worse in eastern Europe, remained the same in southern Europe. While in America, as you've pointed out, I can't even imagine when atheism is going to be the norm even in the most liberal circles in NYC. I work with mostly 20-30 year olds in a technical field on Times Square and even here 8 in 10 expresses a belief in some kind of a higher power, so we might be centuries away from it.
The Japanese census says 90% Shinto/Buddhist or whatever, but in reality its more like 90% atheist, with people attending shrines out of tradition and not believing in kami literally.
This isn't a European thing, its a 'developed world' thing. Look at a map of HDI and you are looking at a map of atheism. I don't mean to say this as an attack, and I'm aware of how it will make some people feel, but it is the truth regardless of sentiment - just like it is the truth that women's rights lowers birth rates, and intelligence lowers violence.
You are ignoring an important change that occurred in history recently - Egypt as a civilization lasted for 4000 years, but change in the last 20 has been faster than in the last 2000. You can't correlate the past in a cyclical way like this and assume the same will happen. People have more information on Wikipedia than the entire library of a reigning King pre-1990.
But if you don't believe me I recommend:
That's a good point, which is why I prefer to go by "self described atheists" which makes it clear that an individual does not believe in God/Gods. However, most people these days would say that "they're not religious" but still believe in a higher power. There are about 3% atheists in the states.
Many religions are a "community matter," so insisting on it being a private matter would have to be a imposed restriction that would not be a attribute of a advanced society.
Definately a better thing.
One group's suppostion verse the religions/sprituality of the vast majority of Humanity.
Yes, but that's irrelevant, since it's also true of millions of "Christians" in America. People that say that they believe in God in NYC rarely go to church, for instance. It doesn't mean that they're Atheists.
You're also ignoring how quickly such changes can easily backslide due to natural disasters, or changes in 'leadership' (although I use that term loosely when referring to the current blithering idiot that is the POTUS - YMMV.) Again, I myself am an athiest and believe religion is bunk. That said, when you look at humanity in general over recorded history, there are ebbs, but in general, religion of some form has been constant for all of recorded history - and I don't see it becoming a thing held by a minority of people across the world in a few centuries, if ever.The Japanese census says 90% Shinto/Buddhist or whatever, but in reality its more like 90% atheist, with people attending shrines out of tradition and not believing in kami literally.
This isn't a European thing, its a 'developed world' thing. Look at a map of HDI and you are looking at a map of atheism. I don't mean to say this as an attack, and I'm aware of how it will make some people feel, but it is the truth regardless of sentiment - just like it is the truth that women's rights lowers birth rates, and intelligence lowers violence.
You are ignoring an important change that occurred in history recently - Egypt as a civilization lasted for 4000 years, but change in the last 20 has been faster than in the last 2000. You can't correlate the past in a cyclical way like this and assume the same will happen. People have more information on Wikipedia than the entire library of a reigning King pre-1990.
But if you don't believe me I recommend:
For whatever reason (and again I fail to understand it) - psychologically the majority of people today gain some sort of strength/comfort believing there is something greater then themselves, or something more after their physical death.
Don't bet money that you can't afford to lose on that.
There's more diversity of belief, custom and culture between my front door and the Starbucks down the street than there is in all of Star Trek.
Star Trek's utopia posits a hopeful future in which humankind has "made peace and overcome our differences" by embracing a vision of the Federation populated by the denizens of West Palm Beach.
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Pinker is an international treasure
The Japanese census says 90% Shinto/Buddhist or whatever, but in reality its more like 90% atheist, with people attending shrines out of tradition and not believing in kami literally.
This isn't a European thing, its a 'developed world' thing. Look at a map of HDI and you are looking at a map of atheism. I don't mean to say this as an attack, and I'm aware of how it will make some people feel, but it is the truth regardless of sentiment - just like it is the truth that women's rights lowers birth rates, and intelligence lowers violence.
You are ignoring an important change that occurred in history recently - Egypt as a civilization lasted for 4000 years, but change in the last 20 has been faster than in the last 2000. You can't correlate the past in a cyclical way like this and assume the same will happen. People have more information on Wikipedia than the entire library of a reigning King pre-1990.
But if you don't believe me I recommend:
It also has something to do with the fact that many religions already declare babies or little kids as being part of the religion of their parents. Most people don't choose one, they are practically born into a religion. And once you are in it, it is really really hard to distance yourself from it in a lot of places of the world. You would get disapproving reactions from family and friends, you might get shunted, discriminated or worse by society for choosing a different religion or none at all. In some countries the punishment is even death. Religions are not only about feeling good and wanting to belong to something greater. That is definitely not the only reason why they have so many members worldwide. A big reason why they lasted so long is the brainwashing of little children and huge group pressure preventing anyone to leave one.
Also, as an atheist, I've made a curious observation over the years that there's no obvious correlation between education and theism. I'm familiar with brilliant scientists who happen to believe in higher powers. Excellent education is widespread and universal with 100% literacy rates in numerous European countries where 80%+ believe in gods. The hypothesis that educated people are atheists is largely a myth.
I find the notion that education and improvement of living standards leads to the slow triumph of vaguely defined "reason" over vaguely defined "superstition" rather strange, especially as you excise the GIANT counter balance to your theory.
If I recall, one of the prevailing prejudices that advanced the cause of colonialism was that Western societies had the duty to civilize the "savages" of Africa and teach them how to be monotheistic, educated, farmers instead of polytheistic foraging or pastoral villagers. A lifestyle that reflected that of the educated Victorian elite was considered to be the inevitable result of "progress."
The idea that the triumph of "reason" is the inevitable result of "progress" plays heavily in the Star Trek world, and troublesome outliers of superstition are relegated to alien races and small, isolated offshoots of humanity, acknowledged and respected simply as a way to show that "advanced" humanity still respects "diversity." The parallels are troublesome.
That level of education, intelligence and standard of living correlate to atheism is not a myth. This has been studied a lot, the link is undeniable. That educated religious exist at all is not weird, of course they do, educated people are just less likely to be religious.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...y-are-educated-people-more-likely-be-atheists
That's a blog post whose thesis is supported by one study and a book.
I think we would need to go deeper before making declarative statements.
I think we would need to go deeper before making declarative statements.
It is not vague. Making major ontological assumptions without basing them on research is not reasonable.
Ultimately that's what we're talking about here. Religions make statements about the nature of the reality, without being able to back up those assertions with evidence. Ultimately religion stand for believing stuff without, or even against the evidence. This is not reasonable, this is not a good idea, thos doesn't need to be encouraged. That some people try to equate such silliness with things like ethnicity or sexual orientation and demand that their stupidity needs to be portrayed in the name of diversity is frankly insulting.
No one is advocating spreading 'reason' by force.
I'm sure this argument can be made, although the link you've provided is merely referencing these two studies and doesn't even quote them, so I don't know what these studies entailed. However, this is probably a case of extremes, that people without high school education or illiterate are more likely to be religious, or people born into some impoverished country with tribal conflicts. While probably true - it's irrelevant for practical purposes. In daily life, or when questioning the leading engineers of our day, or even leading neuroscientists, I was surprised to learn (years ago) that most of them are either Christians or believe in a supreme being of some vague kind. I would classify almost all the engineers in the aerospace industry whom I've come in contact with over the years or have read about, as religious to some extent.
An interesting study would be to take all leading current and former NASA engineers and poll them.
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