My reason for posting as I did was to clarify things for the people who might not be familiar with Dune.
If you're looking for an argument, look elsewhere.
Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)
- Thread starter wayoung
- Start date
If you're looking for an argument, look elsewhere.
Gratuitous, pointless torture and making the Bene Gesserit look like morons is "superior"?
Throwing established canon into the garbage and saying that everything established in Dune was nothing more than false propaganda that Irulan wrote on Paul's orders and the events of KJA/BH's books were what really happened is "superior"?
I'm pretty sure the events of Dune happened, although characters might have questioned whether they did. As for the Bene gesserit, they are morons, and have always been that and worse. They're nasty, have literally no sense of morality or ethics and are in my opinion one of the main villains of the Dune franchise. I honestly liked seeing them get taken down a peg. The only thing I wish they'd done differently was to destroy them as a group entirely instead of them rebuilding in the last book.
Eh, I just took that as a symptom of the addiction. He wasn't in his right mind when he had those thoughts (and I don't think he actually did anything in the end).
Again, he wasn't thinking clearly. I think he pretty obviously wouldn't have had sex with her ghola, heck seeing baby ghola Murbella probably would have shocked him out of the fog of his addiction even if he hadn't resisted the eird urge himself.
But they're just following his stuff. FH made up the sex addiction, and he's the one that had the porn-ish scenes. The sex addition thing was, unfortunately, too big a part of the villains thing to just ignore. That doesn't mean I like any of the sex stuff, but any BH/KJA had all tied in to what FH had been doing (they probably should have followed that a bit less, but to be fair there is less of it, and its less messed up generally, then the stuff in Heretics and Chapterhouse).
I'd argue that the first three were a feast, the fourth was a protein bar, the fith and sixth were gas station sandwiches, the House Trilogy was Subway sandwiches, the books that complete the series were McDonalds but I say that as someone who thinks that McD makes good burgers and I think I've taken this analogy too far
KJA or BH might be a jerk, I don't know. That doesn't make me like their books less, although I obviously don't support them being assholes to fans or critics.
They certainly didn't consider themselves "tied down" to what FH wrote. Instead of advanced Face Dancers and a rational explanation for the Honored Matres, we got sociopathic robots, Bene Gesserit who were more like the Keystone Cops, everyone on the no-ship losing about a hundred IQ points between Chapterhouse and Hunters, a space battle that apparently only took place in two dimensions instead of three, water worms, Norma-fucking-Cenva (who had been aimlessly wandering around the universe for the past 15,000 years or so and just decided to show up in time to save everyone), and an insane blending of ghola-Leto and a bunch of sandworms (again!) while ghola-Paul and ghola-Chani wander over the surface of a dead planet...
I liked all that stuff, and found them to be very good books that somehow saved the hard decent into mediocrity that Heretics and Chapterhouse had started. In all honesty, Frank herbert couldn't have ended the story better then BH/KJA did based on the level of his writing at the time. His first three Dune books will always be the best, but after the third book he just never showed the same writing skill again.
Nobody is looking for an argument. You're the one that responded to a fraction of a five month old post with a pedantic nitpick.
Surely, if anyone was unsure on that point and cared to be enlightened they would have brought it up by now, no?
It's hardly "pedantic" to clarify a point you made that was awkwardly-worded and could be confusing to new readers. Keep in mind that at no time did I ever say that you yourself were incorrect about which woman Paul married.
I prefaced my entire post to say I was responding to older posts. Not everyone sees all threads immediately.
I have no wish to fight with you, so please stop trying to pick one.
Rather than reply to individual comments, just wanted to *like*
. Some really interesting observations and insights. I love your take on issues of GEoD and Siona, and agree the Ed Naha 'Making Of Dune' is a fascinating read (and one of the best all-time movie making-of books). I also really chuckled at the comment about the prequels making the BG look like morons .If any Lynch Dune fans haven't seen it yet there's also some really nice Super 8 behind-the-scenes footage shot by Sean Young which is on YouTube
Sounds like it was a pretty good film to work on.
Can also remember reading that Sean Young got pretty pissed at her managed before the film went into production due to nearly missing the role of Chani.
Paul's father. I enjoy the "House Trilogy" as I felt it explored some of the politics of the Dune universe in a more in depth way. I especially liked seeing more of Rabban, of House Ix, and the like.
I'm sure it contradicts some of the lore, but that's the thing. For me, it doesn't have to tie in to the original novels and I can treat it as its own spin off universe. But, that's me.
Yeah, but Paul was fifteen at the start of Dune. Paul was actually a few years older than fifteen by the time he killed Feyd, and Chani was a little older than Paul. An eighteen year-old who could pass for fifteen in the opening parts of the film should check most American boxes against prudishness, I'd think, for the actor playing Paul. An eighteen or nineteen year old actress should work for Chani.
I don't remember exactly how long before the Battle of Arrakeen Leto II (the Elder) was born.
According to this wiki, Paul was born in 10175 AG, Chani the year before, the Atreides arrived on Arrakis in 10190 AG, and the Battle of Arrakeen was in 10193 AG. I don't have my copy of Dune at the moment, so I can't check this.
http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_(Expanded_Dune)
"Seeming" was the operative phrase there. If thet can pass for 15 and their characters are 15, the fact that the actual actors are older is besides the point.
To give a somewhat similar example: Luke lusting after Leia in Star Wars is (retroactively) somewhat creepy, despite the fact that Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher aren't even remotely related.
I'm not saying they can't do it or it's not possible ('Game of Thrones' has already proven that wrong several times over.) It's just that it may not be the best look for the show's protagonist.
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer it if they did stick to the books. It's just that casting younger actors has it's complications and casting older actors to play younger can be very hit and miss. Layers of complications on top of the pre-existing complication of finding an actor right for the role at all just makes it all the more...complicated?
I distinctly recall Alec Newman was very unconvincing as young, teenage Paul...though oddly *very* convincing as the old, blind preacher.
Granted some of that is down to the choice to make Paul something of a whiny teen (which rather missed the whole point) but a lot of it was because he just didn't look that young and that rather hurt the character's credibility. That and all the silly hats.
I don't recall exactly either, but he was an infant, though old enough to be parted from Chani, so I'm guessing about a year maybe?
Last edited:
Same here. I enjoyed his performance in CoD far more and felt he really grew into role.
That's assuming anybody will buy a black person as a Greek descended Leto Atreides III.
It was Harrison's fault. He wanted Newman to portray Paul as a whiney, entitled, angsty teenager to make his transformation to Muad'dib more impactful. Harrison has publically said it was all him, but since Newman is on screen, he keeps getting the blame.
I don't see how anyone can think that was a good creative decision and is the complete opposite to the book.
A whiny entitled brat probably would have fallen victim to the hunter-seeker (assuming that such a teenage survived the the gom J'abbar).
That's assuming anybody will buy a black person as a Greek descended Leto Atreides III.
Not really remembering who my quote was referencing, but Dune takes place 28,000 years after the siege of Troy. It's not exactly unbelievable that in all that time someone had sex with a black man/woman.
I understand the idea behind it, but, yeah, it was a bad choice that flies in the face of Paul's basic characteristic.
Somebody mentioned Kanye West as Leto III or Shaddam IV. If he's Shaddam IV, that would be interesting (I could see Zendaya Coleman as Irulan.)
Fascinating. As a longtime Dune fan, this is first time really been conscious of diversity with regard to film vs book portrayal in current era. I always assumed all central characters (in absence of specific signifiers) were Caucasian or shades thereof. A fundamentalist realisation that seems to have been perpetuated by film and mini-series. So here's challenge re: diversity casting for Dune reboot:
Atreides: Caucasian?. Possibly yes and honestly not bothered. Understand what drives the global box office. But if Leto or Jessica are white, and partner other ethnicity?...makes Paul more dramatically interesting...
Atreides staff: Even if Leto, Jessica, Paul all Caucasian...Hawat, Halleck, Idaho, Yueh don't have to be. Though book can feel parochial, one feels the enlightened Duke Leto we love would have reached out for the best and brightest in Caladan near-space
Harkonnens: sizeist arguments aside, again not bothered. But another skin tone might help
Fremen: the blue-in-blue eyes is a great difference, and life-in-stillsuits. I can imagine producer saying black or "Arabic" actors for diversity reasons - but too on-the-nose?
Bene Gesserit: Don't care. Any colour or form. (I have visions of Angela Bassett or Viola Davis as GHM
). This holds out for hope for them selecting best and most diverse/special throughout known galaxyHouse Corrino: Don't care. Any colour or form. The more diverse the better
Spacing Guild: Don't care. Any colour or form. As long as they get the mutation aspects right
Sardaukar: whether we see faces or not, don't care. 'Stormtrooper fodder'
